What is the Penalty of Sin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    It has been suggested by many that the penalty for sin is physical death, and that when infants die it proves they are sinners. Is this using correct thinking/logic or is that merely a false philosophical notion? What, according to Scripture, is the penalty for sin? Is there, or could there be, a wise distiction between the 'consequences of sin' and the 'penalty of sin?'
     
  2. quantumfaith

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    IMHO:

    In my humble estimation, the consequence of sin was "spiritual death". In my mind, since Adam did not "immeadiately" suffer physical death, tells me that God's pronouncement was deeper, i.e. "spiritual death". As a result, the "penalty" of this death was imposed, the banishment from access to the "tree of life". My question is this, was the "tree of life" literal or symbollic. Did God actually NEED a tree whose fruit would permint eternal physical existence?
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Absolutely spiritual death was a consequence of sin. Thanks for pointing that out. I should have worded my question better and differently. Could something be a consequence of sin without being the penalty for sin?

    The reason why I ask is because IMHO, I do not believe physical death is the penalty for sin, but rather only a consequence of. I believe the fact that infants see death, and that Enoch and Elijah did not see death, and that forgiven and righteous men still see death, is absolute proof that physical death as we know it is no penalty for sin, but rather a physical consequence of being a physical offspring of Adam subsequent to the fall.

    Man was created a finite being on a finite planet and would have had to have been translated (possibly like Enoch or Elijah) even if they had not sinned to live for eternity. Nothing we see period was created as eternal, and all that is seen will at some point in time be dissolved, and that by God’s plan. The eternal and infinite cannot inhabit the finite for eternity. Mortal must put on immortality to live forever.

    HP: I agree. Although Adam and Eve did not suffer eternal punishment the moment they sinned, it was certainly their only hope apart from a Redeemer.




    HP: As I have said, IMHO the literal tree of life was never meant to be a sustaining factor for man and that for eternity, for again, nothing seen is eternal. It was only to sustain life for as long as they were on this temporal planet. I see it as a literal tree and also as a symbolic tree, Christ being the fulfillment of that tree for all we like sheep that have ‘gone’ astray.

    I am certain no matter what we say concerning this issue we can gain one from another and hopefully find better ways to express ourselves on the subject. We are even free to change our ideas if truth warrants such change. :thumbs:
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
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    I could go off in other "tangents" with this "death" thing, but alas I will not

    1. If would take things off post
    2. The claims of heresy etc would run rampant.
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    The literal reading in the Hebrew text says "dying thou shalt surely die" in regard to the consequences of sin. Hence, death is the consequence of sin. Death is the wages of sin.

    Death is separation not anihilation. In the day Adam sinned he was SPIRITUALLY separated from God. Spiritual separation unless reconciled through Christ leads to the fruits of death manifested in the physical life in progressive downward deterioriation of the spiritual and material well being until the spirit is separated from the body. The body returns to dust and the spirit to God for punishment. In the resurrection the body and spirit are reunited and cast in what the Bible calls "THE SECOND" death. However, this whole process from the moment of spiritual death to eternity by second death is the direct consequence of sin - it is the wages of sin - as it was what God threatened Adam and Eve with for ONE ACT of sin.

    You can no more isolate physical death from sin than you can spiritual or second death from sin - they are all inclusive in "dying thou shalt surely die" and thus the penalty of sin.
     
  6. quantumfaith

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    Why then did Adam not immediately experience physical death?
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: He could have, but thank God he did not!! God obviously saw reason to allow him to continue but for a few years to procreate and for a Savior to be born in human flesh as well. I am certainly glad He did!

    Man does not see physical death at the first sin either, at least not usually. He is long suffering not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Are not we glad of that fact as well!!!! Oh the blessed Mercy of God!!!
     
  8. quantumfaith

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    HP: One of those tangents I mentioned, is this, I am not a "fundy creationist", and thus I have no problem that "death" existed before this account of mankinds creation. This is what leads me to think of this "death" more in the spiritual sense of separation from God rather than the physical.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I suppose you have lost me there. I take it that you must reject the Genesis account of creation in a literal six days. I personally will take it just as it is stated, and allow for God to straighten me when I get home if in fact I am shown in eternity to having been a bit naïve’.
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    No, it is a literal six day account, but due to the physics of Einstein and others, time (the passage of such) is not a constant. This is a FACT of science, time (the rate at which it passes relative to how we experience that rate) is not constant. It is "affected" by at least two known variables, velocity and gravity. What was 6 literal days, from our reference of times rate of passage is approximately equivalent to the 13.8 billion year age of the universe. I will shut up now. No more on this, do not want to "suffer the wrath".
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Paul's rationale is that "death BY SIN" and "so death PASSED UPON ALL MEN" and the only way "death BY SIN" can pass upon "ALL MEN" is for all men to have sinned as "death" only comes "BY SIN." However, death came upon all men by only ONE MAN's sin. This is what Paul is going to defend in the following verses by logic and then by repeated direct and explicit teaching.


    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


    First proof that all men sin in Adam and death passed upon all men by the sin of ONE MAN is that between Adam and Moses there was no law for any man to sin against and yet they died. For "sin is not imputed where there is no law" and yet death only comes "by sin. The only explanation for their death is THE SIN committed by Adam.

    Second proof, there are those who did not sin after the similatude of Adam's transgression and yet they died. Paul tells us that Adam sinned WILLFULLY (I Tim. 2:12-13). Infants and mental incapacitated persons who have no ability to make a willful determination as did Adam still die. Since death is "BY SIN" the only explanation for their death is that THE SIN committed by Adam and thus death came upon them by THAT SIN.

    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.



    In verse 14 Paul says Adam was the "figure" of him to come - Christ. In I Cor. 15 he refers to them as the "first" and "second" Adam. In verses 15-19 he makes a comparison between the disobedience of Adam and its impact upon all in Adam by physical birth and the obedience of Christ and its impact upon all in Christ by spiritual birth. He first considers the comparisons that are contrasted or negative comparisons in verse 15-16:

    Notice that he explicitly says "though THE OFFENCE of ONE many be dead." He does not say through the offences of MANY, many be dead." In a contrasting comparison "BY ONE" the many offences are justified by the ACT OF ONE. Hence, you cannot deny the representative action of Adam upon many without at the same time deny the representative action of Christ upon many. If ONE MAN and ONE ACT can bring death upon many, so also can ONE MAN"s OBEDIENCE bring justification upon many.

    In verse 16 he makes the second negative comparison. One sin brought many under condemnation but in Christ many sins are justified by one man's obedience. If Adam's sin did not condemn many to death then neither could Christ obedience justify many sins.


    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    In verse 17 Paul demands that "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" is totally responsible for death upon all his offspring rather than their own individual offences. Likewise, Paul demands that "ONE MAN" is totally responsible for all the blessings of salvation bestowed upon many others rather than their own personal actions.

    In verse 18 Paul demands that ONE MAN is responsible for judgement that has come upon all those in Adam and likewise ONE MAN's obedience is responsible for all those who receive justification of life.

    In verse 19 Paul demands that ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE "made many sinners" rather than their own individual acts made them sinners. His sin made them sinners by nature and that is why they are sinners by practice. In direct contrast "ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE" has made many righteous rather than their own personal individual obedience. His obedience made them righteous and that is why they are righteous by practice.

    You may not like the fact that ALL IN ADAM HAVE SINNED when Adam sinned and it is that ACT OF SIN that MADE MANY SINNERS but that is what Paul is explcitly saying. If you deny it you have to deny that Christ could act in behalf of others and that God could justify many due to His OWN righteousness and his OWN Death for sin.
     
    #11 Dr. Walter, Aug 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2010
  12. Dr. Walter

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    The text literally says "dying that shalt surely die." Death is comprehensive of a process that includes more than mere physical death. It begins immediately with spiritual separation which in turn produces progressive physical dying resultant in separation of the soul from the body which in turn ultimately will be concluded in second death or eternal separation from God both spirit, soul and body. It is a domino effect. It has a point where it begins spiritually, it has a progressive digression physically and it will never end eternally.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Let me send DW into yet another frenzy. Death, even physical death, does not IMHO always mean the certifiable cessation of a beating heart. Easy now DW.:tonofbricks:
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    Well at least state it medically correct. Doctors do not certify death as the cessation of a beatable heart but cessation of brain waves.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I believe that would be in keeping with truth.:applause:


    HP: Yes in the case of Adam, but not in the case of his offspring. His offspring inherited the aging process that will eventually lead to complete physical death, but his offspring do not incur spiritual separation. Physical depravity as a result of the fall? Absolutely. Spiritual separation for all his posterity due to his sin? No way. Sin is not conceived until the will yields to its selfish impulses subsequent to understanding the intrinsic value of God’s commands apart from punishments or rewards.

    All have saw death in the sense of physical depravity ‘leading to’ complete physical death, but all have not died, case in point Enoch and Elijah. They saw death in one sense (physical degeneration) and yet not in another (final physical death or the cessation of life itself).




    HP: You have it precisely in reverse osmosis in the case of Adam’s posterity. First they see death in the sense of inheriting physical depravity as members of the human race and physical descendants of Adam, which indeed acts as a strong proclivity to sin (via the depraved natural sensibilities) which leads to actual sin as one yields to those selfish propensities.
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Forgive me, but life is in the blood. Do I get at least a B? :smilewinkgrin:

    Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
     
    #16 Heavenly Pilgrim, Aug 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2010
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    You may need reminded from time to time, but you have to honestly love me to get to heaven. :thumbs:
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    You don't even understand that Old Testament statement or you would not have quoted in this context. For example, have you ever given blood to the Red Cross? Have you ever cut yourself? Did you lose your life in either case? No!

    Leviticus 17:17 is placed in a ceremonial context. The ceremonial law applied to every aspect of their daily life. The phrase "shedding of blood" did not mean slicing your finger or even cutting off an arm and losing a lot of blood. It meant to give up your life unto full physical death. The sacrifice shed his blood "unto death." Not merely the cessation of the heart but the cessation of brain waves or till he was fully dead. As such the blood was representative of being ALIVE and the shedding of blood was language that conveyed full and final physical brain dead death. Hence, the jews according to the ceremonial law were to respect blood of animals as it was the blood of animals shed "unto death" that represented the death of the ultimate sacrifice for their sins. The shedding of Christ's blood did not mean he lost some blood -but rather he lost his life.

    Although "soul" and "spirit" and "life" are all used of lower levels of biological life on planet earth, they are also used to describe beings who have no biological material aspects such as God and angels. Lower material biological life came into existence through materials such as "the waters" and "the earth" as these are what God commanded to bring forth all other forms of biological life except for man. Man was created in God's image, which is completey void of all animal life forms (blood, breath, physical life), but rather a complete spiritual concept of "soul" and "life" and "spirit" totally unrelated to "blood" and "breath" and biological "life." This spiritual image is what God directly breathed into man that produced the spirit of LIVES where man shares both the biological life in the physical realm (blood, life, breath) but in addition shares with God spiritual life ("soul" and "spirit" ).

    Whereas animal life is restricted to a physical body, God may exist in a physical life form (incarnation) or apart from it as "soul" and "spirit" and "life." God created man in His image so as to be able to dwell in the body or outside the body.

    Those who argue that man is mere "blood" and "life" and "breath" base all their arguments on texts dealing with biological life forms while ignoring that the same language is ascribed to God and angels without biological material forms. Man's nature shares both natures.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    In Gen 3 "From dust you were taken... to dust you shall return" was the curse upon Adam and Eve directly related to their exclusion from the tree of life.

    Man is "mortal" as Psalms points out.

    God alone possess immortality according to 1Tim 6.

    However God tells us of a "second death" in Rev 20. This is the real death that God is concerned with in Ezek 18 and in John 10. It is the death mentioned in Rom 6 as the wages of sin - that the righteous will not suffer.

    Jesus said in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body and have no power over the soul - but rather fear him who can destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    This is no anhilation but the word "destroy" means "render useless". Death and life are two modes of existence. The second death is an eternal existence apart from God. God alone has always existed in the state of life - union with Himself - self-existence whereas believers have life by union with God as their state of existence - union with God. One can be spiritually dead and yet physically existing (Eph. 2:1). Adam died the day he ate the fruit - spiritual separation but still physically existed. At physical death or separation of the body from the soul, the soul continues to exist either in a state of separation from God or with God.
     
    #20 Dr. Walter, Aug 18, 2010
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