What is the work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jan 14, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Calvinists argue that man is born so depraved, so "dead" in their sin that they cannot be saved a part from "the work of the Holy Spirit."

    Arminians should agree with this statement. The real question is, "What is the work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation?

    Please provide biblical support for your answers.
     
  2. jcrawford

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    Do a Google search under 'Christian Reconstruction' for definitive answers to the Calvin/Arminius debate.

    Is Jesus Lord and God or not?
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Persuasion!
     
  4. KayDee

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    Could you give me the Scirpture Refs for that. Someone else once said the same thing to and used John 6:44 but when I looked up how the word draw was used in other places, there was not one instance where persuasion could be the meaning.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Since no man has ever seen the Holy Spirit, there is not much man is witness to in the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures are not very definitive regarding the work of the Holy Spirit. However, there is one thing that we know, and that is that the Holy Spirit persuades human spirit regarding truth.

    I'm not sure that the Holy Spirit delivers truth, but I am convinced that the Holy Spirit persuades the human spirit when the truth exists and has been delivered.

    Persuasion is most often accomplished by affirmation of truth.
     
  6. wayne0214

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    As far as the Holy Spirit's work and ministry, read John chapters 13-16.
     
  7. KayDee

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    Yelsew

    I disagree. We may not see the Spirit Himself but we sure do see the work of Him.

    As Wayne said, John does a wonderful job of defining His work.

    1.Life-giving power 7:37–39
    2.Indwelling presence 14:16, 17
    3.Teaching/guiding ministry 14:26
    4.Empowering for witness 15:26.
    5.Helper/Comforter 16:7
    6.Writing the NT 16:13 & 15

    I think John 16:8 shows his ministry is more than persuasion of thruth – it is conviction:
    elegcho - #1651 convince of error – some say to the point of shame

    He is the Spirit of Truth, John 16:13. He will guide you – at first I thought this could be persuade but when I looked the word up, it was teach.

    Hmmm, yes, but again, the Word seems to show the Spirit’s influence is much more than persuasion. It may not seem like a big issue but when He is convicting someone of their need for salvation, it’s a biggie, whether he’s trying to persuade you or He is convincing you.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  8. Helen

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    Either way, it would seem the person 'dead in sin' would have to have the ability to respond...
     
  9. The Archangel

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    The Work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation

    There has been some good discussion on this already. Please allow me to add to it!

    When we talk about the HS and Salvation, as has already been mentioned, John is a good place to turn. However, I think John 3 is much more telling.

    John 3:1-10 (ESV)
    Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. [2] This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." [3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." [4] Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" [5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [8] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
    [9] Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" [10] Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?


    This is an interesting passage and to be honest, it is a passage that has taken some time to understand.

    The whole thing about being born of water and of the Spirit is weird when thought about outside of the context of the Bible, including the OT.

    This passage refers to Exekiel 36.

    Ezekiel 36:25-27 (ESV)
    I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. [26] And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


    Here we have the explanation of John 3:5. Ezek 36:25 shows what the meaning of the water is--It is a cleansing from sin. Verse 26, then, follows with the removal of our heart and our getting a heart of flesh in place of the now-removed heart of stone. Then verse 27 shows that the Spirit will cause us to walk according to God's statutes and to obey His rules.

    Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus shows that this should have been understood. Verse 9 Jesus says, "How can you be the teacher of Israel and not understand these things."

    It should be clear from these passage that it is God's work alone, not ours, that is involved in Salvation.

    Even the Ezekiel passage shows the basics of salvation--A new heart and being "caused" to walk in God's ways.

    Who can put a new heart within themselves?

    Then what does the spirit do? It causes the Chistian to walk in God's ways and to obey His rules. (this is exactly why it is impossible to be gay and christian at the same time--but that is a discussion for another time and place).

    In the NT, the Holy Spirit is refered to as one who comes along side. Certainly He is a teacher; certainly He convinces of truth. However it is in the function of one who comes along side that He does all these things.

    I hope that didn't muddy the water too much!

    God Bless,

    Archangel
     
  10. Yelsew

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    KayDee,
    I disagree. We may not see the Spirit Himself but we sure do see the work of Him.</font>[/QUOTE]Then what you are seeing is the result of work and not the work itself. My point stands.
    As Wayne said, John does a wonderful job of defining His work.

    1.Life-giving power 7:37–39
    2.Indwelling presence 14:16, 17
    3.Teaching/guiding ministry 14:26
    4.Empowering for witness 15:26.
    5.Helper/Comforter 16:7
    6.Writing the NT 16:13 & 15</font>[/QUOTE]How does one witness the work of giving life? How does one see the indwelling presence of spirit? How does one know that another is receiving teaching or guidance from the Holy Spirit? No. 4 is evidence that one has been emboldened by someone or thing supernatural. How does one recognize #5 in another? How are we sure that the New Testament is the result of the Holy Spirit?
    Now what is conviction if not persuasion?
    Well let's see, "spirit of truth", does that mean that he brings the truth, or that he persuades you of what is true? You see, some see the truth one way, while others see it a different way. If the Holy Spirit is the source of truth, there would be only one way to see the truth. So, I suspect that the Holy Spirit persuades each of what the truth is.
    Hmmm, yes, but again, the Word seems to show the Spirit’s influence is much more than persuasion. It may not seem like a big issue but when He is convicting someone of their need for salvation, it’s a biggie, whether he’s trying to persuade you or He is convincing you.</font>[/QUOTE]Once again what difference do you see in Persuade and Convince? I see no difference, they both lead to a result. When one is persuaded, that one is convinced! Again, the work of the Holy Spirit is not revealed in scripture, but the result of the work of the Holy Spirit, which is persuasion or convincing, regarding truth, is evident throughout the scriptures. If the Holy Spirit is working in you, and I am convinced that He is, then you and you alone are aware of his presence in you. No one can see the Holy Spirit at work in another! We can all sense that something is happening in the other, but none of us can see what is happening, and we won't know until the work is finished.
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Archangel,
    I would agree with you, save for one thing in John, verses 3:5 & 6. Jesus replied: "In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; 6. what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit." In man, the offspring of the species are born through water, that is, they are incubated in a sack of water, which at the appointed time breaks and the water issues forth, followed by the passage of the offspring though the birth canal into life. Thus man is born of water. So unless one is born of water, there can be no salvation, for there has been no life. With no life there can be no death, with no death there is nothing to be saved from, hence no salvation. Unless one is born of water, and then is born of spirit, there can be no salvation! When we die the flesh decomposes to the elements and depending where the carcass is found, those elements blend into the local environment. However, the spirit departs the dead flesh, and Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    So baptizing the flesh with water does nothing for the salvation of the spirit!

    As for cleansing from sin. Jesus atoned for sin, that atonement removed sin from the salvation equation. Therefore, Faith, a matter of spiritual rebirth, is all that is required for man's salvation. 2000 years after Jesus atoned for sin, we still sin! Why is it that if sins are cleansed from us, we still sin? Obviously, the atonement did not take away the sins of the world. It did however remove the penalty of sin, which is death from us so that we who believe in Jesus Christ may have everlasting life regardless of the sins we sin.

    Yes, Ezek 36:25-27 is parallel to John 3, but because Jesus included the comparison between the natural and the spiritual and because of what the atonement did for man, they are not the same.
     
  12. KayDee

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    WEsley

    Persuasion, to me, does not carry with it the idea of an accomplishment unless in the past tense...where convict implies a finished positive response.

    But you see the verse in question can not be seen two ways. When we are drawn we will be convicted just as the Word says. John 6:37,44. I know you will not agree with that statement but I believe it to be true.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     

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