What Is This Departure?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Apr 8, 2008.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    The Departure of 2 Thess 2:3, 4, What Is It"

    Is it the Rapture?

    or

    An Apostasy?
     
  2. Palatka51

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    2 Thessalonians 2:3&4
    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    It is a falling away of faith. A departure from Christ to the faith of that man of sin. A state of perdition like that of Judas who was of the 12 and came from the 12 to betray Christ. This will be a future betrayal of many that are in the Church but are not of it. They will depart from the church.

    1 John 2:18&19, 28&29
    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
     
  3. webdog

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    "Yes".

    Since apostasy is literally a "removal of christianity", that happens with the removal of christians. :)
     
  4. TCGreek

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    So it's both.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    I wrote a response to the O.P. some five years ago. Or was it ten?
    ----------------------------

    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
    to the end."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    I've underlined a command to comfort each
    other with these things. I personally don't see how
    we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
    come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
    So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
    the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    " in verse 1 and
    the falling away comes first.
    The second is the only mention of the first
    in the rest of the chapter.

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Millinnial Kingdom period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.

    ----------------------------

    \o/ Praise Hashem \o/
     
  6. webdog

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    I believe it is...a removal of all christianity from the world. What's left is chaos, something the antichrist will seem to bring peace to.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    Thanks for the research, Ed.
    Here's a question for you and Webdog

    Is the word apostasia, "falling away," ever used in a positive sense in the NT?
     
  8. webdog

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    It's only used one other place, Acts 21, and refers to falling away from the faith. I think the 2 Thess. use of apostasia is positive, as it means my "departure" :)
     
  9. TCGreek

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    And even there the meaning isn't positive, correct?

    Is the falling away the same as the abomination of desolation that takes place in the middle of the tribulation (Dan 9:27; Matt 24:15)?
     
  10. webdog

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    1. In Acts it is not used in a positve light...but it most definately is in Thess.

    2. It is my understanding the AoD is a false apostasia, as the antichrist had no intention of true worship to begin with. It would be like me turning away from homesexuality after pretending to be a homosexual.
     
  11. TCGreek

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    But if the AOD is a false apostasia, then it is precisely what Paul has in mind.

    It makes sense.
     
  12. Allan

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    I believe it is "The Apostacy". WHat I mean by that is there is always some variance of apostacy throughout the ages but there will come one that is the marker of the beginning of the end. This falling away will set the stage for the AC to grab it's reigns and begin establishing a new religion. (Oprah just may be his first prophet).

    I think verse 6 and 7 refer to the reason it hasn't happened yet.

    So while I agree with Web that both take place at about the same time, I don't agree that the 'falling away' is speaking OF both.


    EDITTED IN -->> I think verse 10 onward speak to some of the truths that they will 'fall' from.
     
    #12 Allan, Apr 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2008
  13. TCGreek

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    Oprah? Why?

    If you don't believe it's referring to the Rapture also, then it must be the midpoint of the tribulation, correct?
     
  14. Palatka51

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    My Dear Brothers of the Faith;

    Please think on this for just a moment and make your commits. Then I will leave this debate to the more learned than I.

    1 John 218&19
    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



    If Satan can lead 1/3 of the Heavenly Host to rebel and cause them to fall. If he can make the son's of God to fall during the time of Noah. If he can take one of the 12 that was so close to Christ that he was trusted with the treasury. He can infiltrate the Church and cause all that are on the Church's rolls, that have not Christ, to follow him into the worship of that man of sin, the son of perdition.

    Why should he have to deceive anyone if the Church is removed?

    If the Church is removed is the Holy Spirit not taken as well?

    With the Holy Spirit removed who is going to hear his deceptions?

    If there is no hearing of truth why then is there deception?

    Please remember that if it wasn't for the Holy Spirit none of us would have heard the Gospel.

    After the rapture, God's wrath is poured out. During this time an angel is given the duty that was the Holy Spirit's job, he preaches the gospel but no one repents.

    Just as it was with Noah, he did what God instructed him to do. The world berated him while the ark was being built. God took Noah into the ark and bore him above the flood of God's wrath.

    2 Peter 2
    1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
    9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
    10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


    Just as it was with Lot, a righteous soul, Sodom vexed him and sought to do him and his visitors harm. Then the angels struck the citizens with blindness so that Lot and his family might be spared the wrath of God upon that evil city. Now remember Lot's wife. She turned back, fell away from the going out and thus was caught up in the wrath that God brought upon that city. She was counted as family but turned to her lusts.

    The wheat will be separated from the tares. The 5 wise will be separeted from the 5 foolish. And the Laodiceans will buy of Him, gold tried in fire, the fire of trial that must begin at the House of God.

    1 Peter 412-19
    12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
     
    #14 Palatka51, Apr 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2008
  15. Palatka51

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    Yes! However, I wouldn't say midpoint but that the rapture will end the Tribulation of the Saints and herald in God's wrath.
     
    #15 Palatka51, Apr 8, 2008
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  16. Allan

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    The Oprah thing was a joke due to a previous thread of yours :thumbs:

    No, not mid-trib but pre-trib.
    Reason - look at the text:
    Verse 1 isn't about the rapture but Paul is begging them by the two great promises of their faith - His coming and their coming unto Him. This is about the day of Christ (His Second coming) and this will not happen unless there is a 'falling away' and after that the man of sin be revealed.

    The rapture is symbolized in the taking away of the Holy Spirit in verses 6 -7 and in verse 8 it speaks to when the AntiChrist will make himself known AFTER that time.

    Notice the distinction in 'falling away' and being 'taken away', but both are before the Son of Perdition makes himself known, and I believe that the 'Taken' happens just before the 'falling'.
     
    #16 Allan, Apr 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2008
  17. Linda64

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    Good post Bro Allan!:thumbs:
     
  18. Allan

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    Deleted by me ...
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    Where is this rapture? lol I don't think there is such a thing. Being caught up in the air to meet the Lord as He returns, sure...that's there. But some secret rapture I do not see.

    As I read these Scriptures I would say this apostacy happened quite some time ago...
     
  20. Palatka51

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    Why do we perceive that Christ is delaying His coming?

    2 Peter 3:9
    9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    2 Thessalonians 2:6&7
    6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    Who is withheld? It is Christ that is being held back until all that can be saved will be saved. 2Peter 3:9

    The "mystery" of iniquity is already at work in Paul's time and will be revealed in our time or some time future but not before the Church is taken. All that can be saved will be saved, it is this "he" that lets Christ work salvation in him. When that very last soul is spared Hell Christ will return.

    Mark 16:14-16
    14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Acts 1:6-8
    6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
     

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