What Kind of Baptists use Liturgical Terms?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, May 9, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    I have never met any Baptist (even the most liberal here in Casper - American Baptist) who are comfortable using Catholic/Protestant terms in their church worship.

    Eucharist instead of Lord's Supper or Communion
    Homily instead of preaching the Gospel
    Acolyte instead of ah, er, whatever an acolyte is
    Vestments
    Lenten

    You get the idea. Where do these types of "Baptists" come from? Why would they want to be distinguished as Baptist when they are more comfortable using Catholic and Lutheran language?

    Is this a cultural thing? Maybe in other exotic foreign lands (like Canada, eh?) they use this?

    Apart from our local hyper-liberal Joshua I see very little of this language on the BB. Is he unique?? (hope, hope :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

    Thanks for insights.
     
  2. Kiffin

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    Hi Dr. Bob,

    I have no problems using the term Eucharist (though I rarely use that term) since it comes from the NT Greek and is a Biblical term meaning "thanksgiving meal". So it is not a Catholic or Lutheran term. I have no problem with Lent and do observe it (Who could be against a time of repentance before Easter?). The other terms I do not use though I have no problem with acolytes. Because of the fact of our Free Church tradition we Baptists do not really have a worship tradition of our own but have borrowed elements of worship from Presbyterians, Puritans, 19th century Revivalists, Anglicans and Charismatic traditions throughout history and made them our own .
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    The kind from Virginia-Highland Baptist Church
     
  4. TomVols

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    Only one of those I use would be Lent, although I don't use it much. I account for it in my preaching, without mentioning it much if at all. Do the same thing with Advent.

    As for my vestments, I don't wear ties many Sunday mornings, on any Sunday night, and no coat or tie on Wed night. So I'm as low-church as you can get [​IMG]

    I'm willing to bet that some who object to this jargon uses the terms "traveling mercies", "right hand of fellowship", and other jargon that some would not immediately understand. Context is probably key.
     
  5. Rev. Joshua

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    Bob,

    Two groups of baptists generally:

    - Those who come from the Charleston/Furman tradition which has always been liturgical

    - Those who were trained in ecumenically-minded seminaries that emphasized liturgical worship

    As for the specifice terms you mentioned:

    - Eucharist - As far as I know this is the most widely used term among Christians for this meal,

    - Homily - I use this interchangeably with "sermon." Don't even fundamentalists call the study of preaching "homiletics" ?

    - Acolyte - Well, you have to have some name for the kids who light the candles. Isn't this the traditional term?

    - Vestments - Only baptists whose clergy wear stoles would use this term; but it is the term for those stoles.

    - Lenten - There is an increased interest in the church year even among conservative baptists. It's a very old Christian discipline that is certainly not out of place in a baptist church.

    Joshua
     
  6. TomVols

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    Joshua,
    Correct about the word "homiletics". Plus, it makes us conservatives sound smarter than we really are :D

    You are also correct in that conservatives and evangelicals are giving a bit more attention to the Christian year. A preaching prof at Southeastern Seminary recently included a whole chapter on the lectionary/christian year in his book on planning a preaching calendar.

    GASP! One of Paige's profs embracing the lectionary? Maybe the IFBs are right? We SBs are liberal after all :eek:
     
  7. Artimaeus

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    What Kind of Baptists use Liturgical Terms?
    Why, Liturgical Baptists of course (ba-dum-bum). The more ecumenical we become the more we will be interested in using religious terms and the less we will be interested in using the English language to convey our thoughts. Religious jargon is to be avoided at all costs when talking to potential Christians. High Church is just another term for religious snobbery. Low Church pride is just as bad. Just have church as simply and honestly as your heart can muster.
     
  8. Bro. James Reed

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    Artimaeus, yours is the first post that I understood completely. I guess us ole Primitives are just too low to use such high class, $5 words.

    BTW, until I joined this board, I had never even heard of the terms Dr. Bob named. In fact, I didn't even know what the Eucharist meant until I talked to Carson Weber a while back.

    Now, the right hand of fellowship is something that we PB's know all about. Although, it is more like the hug of fellowship.

    God Bless us ole po' folks who can't afford no good learnin. And, of course, the fact that we don't believe in seminaries.

    I guess that would make us smarter then ya'll, wouldn't it? We have to learn it on our own. :D [​IMG] :D [​IMG]

    I'm just funnin ya. [​IMG]
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    At my church, some folks would know about Lent, Acolytes, Eurcharist, Lectionaries and Homilies.

    Common terms that were used in their Catholic and Lutheran churches BEFORE THEY GOT SAVED!

    Now they are busy learning a new language and new words, like "You must be born again!"

    Thanks for the replies. Glad to know there are some Baptists (probably the majority out there) that are not enamored in that mess!
     
  10. Bob Farnaby

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    Actually, the word 'Eucharist' came up n a song that was sung at church this morning (The curse of contempory christian music ... using words like that!!) and the song leader thought it needed explaining before the song was sung ;)

    ahhh .. if only we used real english ...
    Regards
    Bob
     
  11. Haruo

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    How about "hymnal" where "songbook" would be "realer" English?

    Actually, the English for "Eucharist" ought to be "Thanksgiving", but if we called it that folks would expect turkey...

    Haruo
     
  12. Pete Richert

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    I don't know Bob, you seem to be making a lot over terminology. Is "communion" any more meaniful to the unchurched then "eucharist". How about hymnal, sermon, fellowship, etc. I think what you might be getting at more is that at this present time in salvation history, in this country, etc, people who go to churches who use these terms TEND to be more into ritual and less into a trusting faith in Jesus Christ then people who use equally unintelligle terms (to the public). But that doesn't make the term any less valid. Even the term "Lord's Supper" will need to be expalined to an outsider.

    BTW, why is it that liberal churches tend to be more liturgical. Doesn't that seem backwards? Wouldn't they want to "liberate" from these traditions of the past? I just don't get it. Joshua?
     
  13. Kiffin

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    That is fascinating! I have never understood why more Conservative Baptists have not embraced Liturgy which is immersed in Biblical theology but it seems to be embraced by more liberal Baptists while Conservative Baptists tend to emrbrace 19th century Revival worship (3 hymn and a sermon sandwich) or Charismatic worship (Contemporary Praise and Worship service). Makes you want to say Hmmmm..... :D
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Good points and appreciate the insights.

    I am not a Protestant. I am not Lutheran, Catholic or Episcopal. I am a Baptist.

    I do not have any desire or roots in "liturgy" so why would I want to leave traditional BAPTIST worship service for foreign liturgy than is meaningless?

    Hymnal, communion, even "pot-luck" are not unique religious terms.

    But if I get up Sunday and start saying "Pie Jesu" or "Agnus Dei", or tell folks that we should say the "Gloria Patria" because we're in the 5th Sunday of Easter, I might as well head down toward St. Anthony's.

    Catholic is what catholic does. :eek:
     
  15. Kiffin

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    What is traditional Baptist worship? Do Baptists have a Book of Church order as Presbyterians or do we have a Book of Common Prayer like Anglicans? The answer is no, for there is no such thing as traditional Baptist worship. The first Baptists in the 1600's followed basically the Puritan/Presbyterian Regulative principle of worship as did many Baptists in the 1700's.

    What most of us call traditional BAPTIST worship actually has it's origins in Charles Finney type revivals in the 1800's which was not Baptist at all. The current Praise and Worship style popular with many Baptists has it's roots in the Charismatic movement.

    Liturgical worship per se is not Roman Catholic but more Anglican in style since Roman Catholic worship for centuries was primarily Latin. Old Testament worship was Liturgical. Many such as myself believe Liturgical worship to be the more Biblical of worship styles. In Acts 4 we read the Church reciting a prayer that apparently they had memorized and in Revelation 5 we see Liturgical worship and action in worship.

    Acts 13:2 And as they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I
    have called them


    Focus on the word "ministered." Luke says they ministered to the Lord in their worship. The word for ministered here is the Greek word
    LATREUO. We get our English word "liturgy" from it. LATREUO describes "priestly service rendered to God." As a priest offered a sacrifice on the altar to the Lord, so we as New Testament priests
    are to offer sacricice to the Lord. How often though in our churches is it more watching the pastor, music director, choir perform rather
    than the congregation fulfilling their role as New Testament priests?

    Liturgical worship is very flexible and varies from high to low church styles. The fact of the matter is that BAPTISTS have never had a traditional worship style but we have always borrowed from others. For some reason more Baptists are comfortable with 19th century Revivalist worship and Charismatic worship than Liturgical worship. The fact is none of them have roots with Baptists for Baptists have always borrowed other styles and made them our own. [​IMG]
     
  16. Kiffin

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    Most Baptists are against Liturgy because they don't know what it is or they are unfamiliar with it. I am convinced Liturgical worship can work within any Baptist church if properly introduced.
    There is a great variety in style. Here is a typical service of my last church and my current Church. They both are differant and show a blending of the 19th Century Revival worship with Liturgical worship.

    Opening Hymn

    Call to Repentance - 1 John 1:9

    Silent Confession of Sins

    Invocation

    Welcome

    Hymn

    Hymn

    Intercessory Prayer

    Offertory Prayer

    Offering

    Old Testament Reading
    New Testament Reading

    Confession of Faith (Either a historic Baptist confession or another confession or Creed)

    Special Music

    Sermon

    Invitational Hymn

    Announcements

    Closing Scripture Reading - Numbers 6:24-26


    My Current Church's worship

    Opening Hymn

    Scripture Reading

    Silent Confession of sins

    Invocation- O Lord God, Holy Trinity, Forgive us of our sins that we have committed and come and dwell within our assembly.

    We believe in You, God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and

    We believe in You our Lord Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. You descended into hell and the third day You arose again from the dead. You ascended into heaven and you sit now at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from where You shall come to judge the living and the dead. And

    We believe in You our Comforter, O Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified.


    Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons yet One God, with Your light and Your leadership guide ,our thoughts, and all our actions, that we may learn from Your Word, offer worthy praise and that Your power and presence may be in this congregation and in the church universal. By the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord, we
    pray, Amen.

    Welcome

    Prayer Requests

    Intercessory Prayer

    Announcements

    Hymn

    Offertory Prayer

    Offering

    Hymn

    Hymn

    Sermon

    Invitational Hymn

    Closing Scripture Reading - Numbers 6:24-26

    Closing Prayer
     
  17. PJ

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    We don't use them either, Dr. Bob, agreeing that they are more Catholic/Protestant terms.

    Even if only for the sake of visitors who have never darkened the door of any church before, or to benefit first generation believers, it seems prudent to stick with simple terminology.

    Consequentially, of the five ritual terms you've mentioned, only the word vestment is found in the KJV - and the wearers were worshippers of Baal (2 Kings 10:21-23).

    PJ

    [ May 15, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: PJ ]
     
  18. KenH

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  19. Rev. Joshua

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    Bob, several points here:

    - Most Church historians recognize that baptists are Protestants. The desire of some baptists to sever themselves from 1,600 years of church history is one of the scariest things I've seen on this board.

    - As a Christian, you do have roots in liturgy.

    - Traditional baptist worship outside the American frontier and the churches influenced by frontier religion does include liturgy.

    - Where did you get the impression that liturgy is meaningless?

    As for the question about why social liberals tend to prefer liturgical worship - I dunno. I'm tempted to say because we take our faith more seriously [​IMG] ! In all seriousness, on the clergy side of things there is a definite connection between advanced degrees from mainstream seminaries and social/theological liberalism. Those places also tend to teach an appreciation for church history and liturgical worship.

    Joshua
     
  20. Pearl

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    I haven't posted in a wile but I am comfortable with it. At my church we use some of those terms. Especially Eucharist. I have friends who are Catholic (also my case manager at school who is incharge of my Individualized Education Plan is Catholic. My case manager claims she doesn't go to church anymore because she doesn't like the priest. She was orginally Protestant but she married a man who is Catholic, so now, she's Catholic. I guess that's a good thing :confused:

    Pearl [​IMG]

    [ May 22, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Pearl ]
     

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