what makes a person believe?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Aug 1, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    how many well intentioned people study the bible and pray often and write passionate books and they even believe they have made a connection to God, yet their doctrine is opposed to the gospel. why is it that a person may have heart felt seeking of God and yet they are lost and may never find God. how can man trust his own heart? it is a great concern to me that i was not able to trust in my own feelings and it is God that gives a person ability to know the truth, it is not wooed upon them other wise in all fairness everyone would have the same opportunity to resist the wooing of the power of the gospel. Yet the gospel does not reach every ear, and in the arminian view it is the obedience of missionary's that will provide a chance for those to be saved. God in His power could have made the gospel reach every ear correct?
    The world is guilty and it is up to Gods mercy to save who He will, God can enlighten anyone He wants to the truth or He can let them stay in their own condition and get justice in the end. This is a hard pill to swallow, and i see why arminians look for a way out.
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    The Holy Spirit ministers to sinners via 'reproving them of sin, of His righteousness, and of the future final judgment.' [John 16:8]

    Then they will either receive Christ [John 1:12] or turn away from Him. [Acts 7:51 & John 5:40] These two verses prove that a sinner may resist His proffered grace.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    Nothing "makes" a sinner believe. When the Holy Spirit opens his mind, he realizes the futility of his own way and responds in faith. A sinner may resist grace to be sure. We all admit that. But that is a sign that his mind has not been illuminated and that Satan is still blinding him (2 Cor 4). Until God opens the mind, he will continue in that path.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Yes, massdak it is a very hard pill to swallow and to be honest I swallowed it when I actually thought that was what the bible was teaching. However, it is clear to me now that is not what the scripture teaches and therefore its not a pill that ever needed to be swallowed because its not a pill of truth.

    In my experience its also a very difficult pill to cough back up once you swallowed it. Pride continues to choke it back down, but if one can remove his preconceived ideas and presupposition when approaching the text I believe they will reconize that it truly never was a pill worth swallowing in the first place.
     
  5. Southern

    Southern
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    Ray,
    Thats all sinners do is reject God, but their are ones who do believe (Acts 13:48) and that is because they are appointed to eternal life.

    In Christ
     
  6. Skandelon

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    Southern,

    Read the context of Act 13:48 and remember that Gentiles coming into covenant with God was not the norm back then. This was a major conflict and the Jews of the day were claiming that the Gentiles have never been appointed to enter covenant and go to heaven. So when the author says, "and those appointed to eternal life believed..." he is refering to the fact that their belief was the ultimate proof that Gentiles were indeed appointed to eternal life. Proof is in the puddin. Proof is in the faith and the Gentiles had faith so no matter how many people said, "Gentiles haven't been chosen by God." They could reply, "those who are chosen believe...that is, those people groups who God chose prove it by their faith.

    That is all Act 13:48 is saying.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Southern,

    You suggested 'Thats all sinners do is reject God, but their are ones who do believe (Acts13:48) and that is because they are appointed to eternal life.'

    Ray: I will most gladly agree with you that sinners by nature continue to reject God. Without the ministry of the Spirit of God, no one would ever come to the Lord.

    Catholicism in the use of their Vulgate passed this along to our Protestant versions. Of course, I am referring to Acts 13:48. Check with the Greek scholars and you will be reinformed that you have merely copied Augustinian/Calvinism rather than Biblical theology.

    The correct rendering of this verse should read more like this. 'As many as were disposed to eternal life, believed.' "Expositor's Greek Testament" . . .

    A.T. Robertson says the same thing in almost the same words. "Ordain" is not the best translation.

    If you reject the original language you will never come to truth.

    You brethren need to study before you come to this board.

    Ray
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Speaking of studying before you come to this board, as has been pointed out to you before, Ray, you are wrong the original language.

    If you reject the original language you will never come to the truth.
     
  9. Southern

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    Skan,
    Acts 13:48 reads as follows:
    When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

    The phrase seems to apply to individuals and not to just a generic term referring to a nation other than Isreal (Gentiles). It says "As many" referring to the ones who believed and how do you understand this to refer to all when it seems to have an individual and not all encompassing statement. Thanks

    May God bless you
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    You Calvinists go ahead and just accept what the Vulgate has to say; did you think that the interpreters of Augustine would not defer to his ideas? Some people have already learned there is a connection between Augustine and Catholicism and Augustinianism to Calvinism. John Calvin, the new convert to Protestantism, still perpetuated the ideas of Catholicism in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion."


    I learned the Word of God from the KJV., but in certain instances it is not always the best rendering of copies of the original manuscripts. That is why people who study for ordination, go back to the original writing, the Greek language, to insure that their theology is pure.

    As to Acts 13:48 the word, 'tasso' is used and not 'prooridzo' (predestinated). Dean Alford translated it, 'as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.' {Dave Hunt, "What Love Is This?" Loyal Publishing Co., p. 210.

    The reading should read, 'As many as having been inclined toward eternal life, believed.' The Holy Spirit is the Person and influence who convicts and convinces sinners of their inner need to believe in Jesus, our Lord.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Dave Hunt as been thoroughly discredited. This article clearly shows just a few of the many and often repeated errors both in fact and method that Hunt used to write his travesty of a book.

    http://dbts.edu/huntreview.asp

    The fact remains that tasso is translated appropriately in all the major translations. It means appointed.

    Furthermore to continue with the attempted connection between Catholicism and Calvinism is sign that true study and learning has not been taken place. Ray, you tried this before. It didn't work then, and having taken a break from this forum for a while did not "dispose" us to recieve this false connection any better. It shouldn't have been tried then; it certainly shouldn't be being tried now.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Massdak;
    Out of what? does this mean Arminians are lost because they aren't Calvinist?

    Belief is faith and faith is trust. We trust in God for our Salvation. It is ultimately God who saves us. Why does He save us when our unrighteousness is deserveing of Hell. Calvinist claim it's for His good pleasure He saves who He will and dooms the rest regardless of any attempts to seek God. To find out who He is and what He is. God's word says that we will find Him when we seek Him with our all. Calvinist say we can't seek God. Calvinism teaches individual election. Gods word teaches that God elects all of the Gentiles because the Jews rejected Him. Calvinist deny this.
    Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it .

    I certainly hope that I see all you Calvinist when we get to heaven. Not so I can say I told you so. But because I love you all as siblings in Christ. The thing that's important to me is that I see you there.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    Ray has often cited A.T. Robertson as supporting his view of Acts 13:48. In reviewing this article again today, I found something very interesting. Below is a paragraph taken from page 11 of the article linked above about Hunt’s use of Robertson with respect to Acts 13:48. When you read it, take particular note of what Robertson actually said, including the part that Hunt omitted. It is bolded for easy recognition.

    Above, Ray says A.T. Robertson says the same thing in almost the same words. "Ordain" is not the best translation. But now, look at what Robertson actually said: “The word ‘ordain’ is not the best translation here. ‘Appointed,’ as Hackett suggests is better. So Robertson believed that “appointed” to eternal life is the better translation.

    Notice furthermore the quotation of Robertson near the end of the paragraph. It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God’s grace by the stand that they took on thisday for the Lord

    Quite clearly, Hunt (in print) and Ray (here) have both tried to make Robertson appear as saying something he did not say. That is plainly unethical. One does not have to like the position of another. But he is obligated to represent it properly.

    These kinds of errors fill Hunt’s book and Ray’s writings. It seems that Ray got many of his opinions from Hunt’s book. Unfortunately, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. The doctrines of salvation, whichever side you come down on, deserve better than this sham of an attempt at argumentation. We can at least be honest with what other people believe and write.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Thank you, Pastor Larry. And if they can't get by with misrepresenting, they either just ignore the questions, or resort to sarcasm and absurd scenarios in heaven.
     
  15. Frogman

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    Did John Calvin not study the original languages?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    Can you tell me where in the Bible does God open anyones mind? I typed this in to my Bible program and nothing comes out. I can't find anything on it.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  17. Frogman

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    Pastor Larry can asnwer for himself but, I suspect his pharse is a figure of speech, search for something like it is the goodness of God that leadeth you to repentance, and the idea that God does open the heart of a person; also note throughout scripture, man does not seek after God, but that God seeks and saves sinners, beginning with the first man (Adam).

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Notice John Calvin was such a scholar that he had no idea of what the Book of Revelation was all about. The converted Catholic did not even try to exegete the last book of the Bible. He could not even get Romans straight in his own mind.

    I came to my understanding of Scripture long, long before reading Mr. Hunt's book. I must say that I did not disagree with one thing that he wrote. He is hated by Calvinists because he has all the answers to their twisted view about our God. He does not make God into an arbitrary malicious Divine One who picks and chooses human souls for Hell and Heaven, according to His good pleasure.

    I challenge anyone to study the Greek scholars about Acts 13:48.

    The Divine justice, mercy and love of Almighty God precludes the true God from damning the majority of sinners by decree and saving His favored ones.

    How could the Lord God tell Christians to love their enemies, while He is allowed the freedom to hate the majority of sinners, the enemies of God's holiness? God is fair in His dealing with human sinners. [Acts 17:30] ' . . . Now commands all men, everywhere to repent.'

    Those who study church history/the history of the church soon realize that Calvin had a clear link back to Augustine, the greatest of Catholicism's theologians. In my reading, I have repeatedly come across this truth.

    Some of you would like to think that because John Calvin became a Protestant that he changed all of his former, Roman Catholic theology.

    Regards . . . .
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    Berrian:

    You remind me of one of my professors in Seminary. It was an Arminian seminary, and a dispensationalist seminary. A Bible Baptist college.

    He told us one day in class that Scofield was wrong in saying that there will still be souls saved during the great tribulation, and that Scofield did not understand both books of Thesalonians and of Revelation.

    It was all I could do to keep from laughing.

    Scofield, a most widely respected scholar of both persuasions and even by non-dispensationalists. It was the desire of every one of those in that Bible College to own either a Thompson's Bible or a Scofield Bible, and here was this obscure seminary professor, who hasn't written one thesis that has been published as a book, telling us, that Scofield did not understand Revelation.

    And I suppose God has appeared to you and revealed the meaning of Revelations to you ?

    And what about what Pastor Larry revealed about the deliberate misleading that your favorite author has done ?

    Shall it be, as many other questions posed to you, left unanswered ?
     
  20. UMP

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    What makes a person believe? The answer is found in Ephesians. Actually just TWO words.
    "BUT GOD". Those are two very big words. SO, SO simple, yet SO, SO true!

    Ephesians 2: 1-4 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"
     

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