what makes a person believe?

Hi UMP;
Believing is trusting and both are faith and this is where it comes from and what makes us believe.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
What makes us believe is the word of God.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Who gave you the faith?
Who gave you the ears to hear?
Who gave you the word?

 

We have ... and your point has been clearly refuted, even by the person you claimed in support of it.

Did you read the book of Hunt's book yet Ray? You say did not disagree with one thing that he wrote. That means you are engaging in misrepresentations of the truth, in unethical argumentation, and in bad scholarship. Is that really where you want to be?

 

Hi UMP;

In Answer to all three questions; God did.
He also gave me life and the ability to make a choice as to whether or not I would accept any of those things above. He chose to die for the sins of the whole world, because His own rejected Him. He then gave the same opportunities to he gentiles.
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it .
This is the election of the rest of the entire world.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

LUVLIGHT writes:
"In Answer to all three questions; God did."

Amen!
Then I stand by my original statement. "What makes a person believe? The answer is found in Ephesians. Actually just TWO words.
"BUT GOD". Those are two very big words. SO, SO simple, yet SO, SO true!"

 

Brother Larry, you said, 'Did you read the book of Hunt's book yet Ray?'

Ray: 'Reread my post. I told you that I held my beliefs long before I read "What Love Is This?" I would think that you being a pastor would first take people at face value, especially on a Christian Board. Either way, why would I be lying? Even if Mr. Hunt influenced me to think his way, is that a sin or unethical? Your trying to discredit a witness as to his position is a tactic much older than you.

Larry said, 'You say you did not disagree with one thing that he wrote. That means you are engaging in misrepresentations of the truth, in unethical argumentation, and in bad
scholarship. Is that really where you want to be?'

Ray is saying, 'Here is a quote from Norman Geisler's book, "Chosen But Free" p. 41.

'Some moderate Calvinists, like J.O. Buswell, deny this is a reference to predestination. He wrote, 'Actually the words of Acts 13:48-49 do not necessarily have any reference whatever to the doctrine of God's eternal decree of election. The passive participle 'tetagmenoi' may simply mean 'ready,' and we might well read, 'as many as were prepared for eternal life, believed.'" He adds, "Commenting on this word, Alford, says, 'The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life (v. 46); the Gentiles, "as many as were disposed to eternal life," believed . . . . To find in this text preordination to life asserts, is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain.' "2 Be this as it may, even if this text is taken as such, in the strong sense there is no contradiction between preordination and persuasion, since God preordained the means (persuasion) with the end (eternal life).

Now you cannot attack me, pastor, because I have merely quoted the ideas of other people.
I learn and study with scholarship.

Regards,
Ray

 

I LUVLIGHT said:

Interesting. So, pray tell, how is this an election of the entire world ? Has the entire world enthusiastically, joyfully, praisefully and prayerfully embraced God ?

Because Paul said, 'the Gentiles will hear it', is that solid enough proof to say that God elected the entire world to glory ?

 

I don't need to reread your post. My question was not answered in it. You have repeatedly said in this forum that Hunt's book is an excellent work, well researched, and so on ... You, in fact, espouse many of the same opinions as Hunt does in his book. The point is that this review completely and thorougly discredits Hunt's work, his "scholarship," his method, and many of his arguments. You would learn much about the errors of Hunt's writings, and in addition see some of your own errors.

Why are quoting Geisler (another work of questionable value)???? My question was about Hunt. You said you did not disagree with one thing that he wrote. Yet what he wrote has been thorougly discredited. Quoting Geisler doesn't let you off the hook.

But the fact remains that you have wholeheartedly endorsed the misrepresentations, unethical use of sources, bad argumentation, and flat out error of Hunt's work. Are you ready to repudiate that?

 

Hi Pionybaptist;
How you doin' today?

This passage proves that election is not a sure thing for Salvation because, the Jews were elected and they rejected Christ. You can be elected and reject Him. Most people do, it's our choice. Just as it was the Jews choice to accept Christ or reject Him.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all .

It's solid enough to disprove your theories of being unable to hear and understand. It also disproves your theories that election is individual.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Only if election is always the same choice to the same thing. But it is not. Beorge Bush and Dennis Eckersly were both elected, but not to the same thing. The fact that Eck was elected to Cooperstown instead of hte White House does not mean he was less elected.

In theology, it is always important to note when two different things are being talked about. The election of the Jews as a nation is not the same as the election of individuals to salvation.

 

Hello, ILUVLIGHT, I'm okay, thanks for asking.

Now, you said:

I see.
Well, you know, the Bible says Paul was often stoned and beaten because of what he was preaching. I guess all those stonings musta shaken his brain a little off.

So, I guess Paul didn't know what he was saying, when he wrote the following:

Not only Paul, but Peter also. He musta been drunk when he wrote these ? That dirty, rotten, good for nothing illiterate fisherman, shootin' his mouth off down through the centuries !

And John ! Gosh ! You too ?

But, I guess, you know, it's like, how do they say it ? Like teacher, like student. Teacher don't know what he's saying, student won't know what he's passing on, either, right ?

 

Also, Mike, you said:

So, you are saying, that despite what the Bible says to the contrary, the natural man has some good in him that enables him to understand the things of the Spirit ?

I've already posted this in another thread, I forget which, but here it is again:

What the Bible says about the unregenerate or natural man.

this was posted by a dear brother in another thread, and I find very informative as to the condition of the natural man.

It shows how the natural, unregenerate man cannot escape the statement of Paul in Ephesians 2:1

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins".

 

Hi Pionybaptist;

This is so true. Notice it says " the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:"
These things are the deeper things of God that he is talking about in this chapter. At the beginning of the chapter He says;
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
He admits that at first He doesn't know much other than the testimony of Christ. When you are brand new saved as Paul and you and I were we don't know all about the things of God we just know of His sacrafice for us.

Then as we grow in the Lord we learn of them;

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

No one is saved knowing the deep things of God because you have to be saved in order to know them.

These verses are about Christ not any man except Him. The plural term used should not include men but God. The name of God ELOHIM is plural meaning the make up of the trinity.The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. 3 = 1 God.

It is God that Justifieth not mans election.

I think that it would be safe to say that not all of the claimed elect have any of these qualities. Some do, I have met a few. I have also met those who have no mercy or kindness, and I doubt there Salvation. These are the fruits that we know other Christians by.

This verse clearly supports what I have stated with scripture. It says may also obtain it doesn't say they will obtain.

This verse affirms the apostleship and election of Paul I agree. I consider Paul one of the best of the apostles and writers even though his writings can be hard to understand.

Maybe you misquoted this verse's address below.

This is what it says;
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
I read the rest of your post and not one scripture says that all the elect will be saved.

As to your next post I read it as well. And not one verse supports individual election total depravity or unconditional election. I never said there is one good thing in the unsaved men. The Bible is clear that the gentiles will hear the gospel and yet you suggest that Paul was knock senseless by the stoning He endured. I think that even though Paul did Suffer for the work of the Lord. I don't believe he lost any of his senses.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

The concept of 'foreknowledge' clearly means that God {had previous knowledge of, to know before hand, or to foresee}. For example in Acts 2:23 & I Peter 1:2. The Greek word is (proginosko) and Dr. Strong says that it means, 'forethought.' God looks at each sinner and He knows where their final destination will be, because He is omniscient. This is much different than determining for them their ultimate home of being either in Heaven or Hell.

Your medical doctor may give you a 'prognosis' as to having cancer, but the good doctor did not give you the disease. Can we expect less from God. Does He determine the fate of each sinner? We say absolutely not. His love and Divine justice goes out to all sinners. [I Timothy 2:5-6 & I John 2:2] He clearly knows the destination of each sinner, but He does not autocratically, dispatch them to the Lake of Fire. The medical doctor knew before you did that you had cancer; in this same way God knows who all the lost ones will be.

The word 'prognosis' comes from the Greek word, (prognosis) meaning to know beforehand. The Bible never says that the Lord God ordains the majority of sinners to Hell. [Matthew 7:13-14] God encourages us to enter at the 'strait gate' not the wide one. Does that tell you something about our Lord?

 

What Ray Berrian says in 77 words below, Paul dashes to pieces in 53 words.

Ray Berrian said:

 

Hi Ray Berean;
If men would only see the choice being offered in this verse;
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
They'd never argue that man doesn't have a choice.
The intelligents of Christ says so much with such few words.
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
These verses tell us which way to go and the consequinces .Then He states how few there will be that find it. Explaning why so few are saved.
I'm convinced that you can take one verse at a time and make the Bible say what ever you want it to. You can even make it say that men cannot seek God or there is no God. I pray that all who really want to find that straight and narrow path will find it. We all first of all have to admit we can all be wrong and to learn about God with fear and trembling. I have been wrong in my life more times than I can count. The only thing that I will never deny or change my mind about is Jesus Christ The Son of God.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Mike, first, the issue is not choice, but, the exercise, or object of that choice.

Will a man choose Christ without divine intervention from God Himself, seeing as how the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament has described unregenerate man as totally bound to sin ?

Will you, as a Bible Baptist, notwithstanding your Arminianism, claim before God, in all clear conscience, with absolute conviction, that you did not need His help in making you choose Him, that you did it of your own free will, you did it of your own might, and of your own good judgment, and that your choice was never in any way bound to your fallen nature ?

Enter ye in at the strait gate, and who is the gate ? Christ is the gate, and can one enter into Christ apart from faith ? And does fallen man, with a heart that is deceitful above all things, and whose imaginations are continually evil, have the ability to conjure up true faith that pleases God ?

 

That alone should tell you that your faith is of supernatural origin, and not a "free will" decision you, yourself, made.

 

Hi Pionybaptist;
The thing I like about you the most is that you are dedicated to what you believe.I consider you a brother in Christ and not an enemy.

I know you certainly don't believe that man comes to Christ on his own. I'll shock you a little here I agree. First man has to know about Christ and he can't know unless it is preached to him. Man is drawn to Christ by God. Jn 6:44 Then we might argue about what the word "draw" means. I'll admit that I'm no Greek prof. I'm an Accountant and Property Manager. This still doesn't mean I'm ignorant of scripture. How ever I feel I'm a lot less ignorant than I was when I first came here. I read you guy's arguments over the Greek and Latin words. I have to tell you that they seem fruitless to me. Since at the time of Christ there was no dictionaries it would be pretty difficult to prove what any of you think about the meaning of any word in the Greek or Latin actually means. It all at best is educated guesses and the science of men can most often be so wrong that it's pitiful.

I will not. But I will not say that it is because of regeneration that I believe. but I'm regenerated because I believe. This is why I say I have a relationship with the Lord.

What a question sort sounds like a Lawyer. Are you???? I claim nothing but the God given ability to choose between good and evil. Even this is given by God. Why do you assume that man has no choice? When scripture clearly teaches it. We are invited to come to Him. He first choose us to come to Him the Ball is in our court. Are we to ignore Him and His invitation.
Matt 22 shows the invitation.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

These were the Jews who rejected Him;

Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Notice the servants bids them to come.
A clear invitation.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Invitation is all through the Bible to come to Him. He's already chosen you.You just had it told to you as well to come.

Nope we must first have faith you said it.Amen

Yes by hearing the word of God;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
and I've already showed you all the gentiles are elect. Act 28:28 It's so clear that your not seeing it. I don't mean that last sentence in sarcasm but with Love brother.
Now that you know, tell the world with humbleness of Heart.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hi Nick;

The idea of faith is originally God's but the decision to accept it as fact is my trust in Him. Same as yours. You were invited and you accepted the invite as well. Christ alway makes the first move with invitation. You can't come with out it. You can't even know about it. someone has to preach it to you or tell you about it in order to know.
May God Bless You;
Mike