what makes a person believe?

Hello, Mike.

First, let me say that dedication to what we believe will not carry weight before God. The Jews of Jesus' day were dedicated to what they believed, and He called them wolves.

Truth is what we ought to be dedicated to. Love is not boundless. Its boundaries are truth and knowledge.

Having said that, I wish to reiterate that this is not so much a question of choice as a will that is dictated to by a corrupted nature. Paul calls it being carnal, sold under sin, finding in himself no good thing.

You say you were regenerated because you believe ? Then you got it all wrong. You believed, because you were regenerated, check out the sequences at John 1:12-13, that is why the Lord calls His sheep His sheep. Moses put it this way:

Psalm 90:1 -

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

All generations. Moses did not say, "Lord, thou shall be our dwelling place beginning this generation".

Romans 8:29-30 says:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no break in the sequences here. God does not pause in between, say, predestinate and called, for unregenerate man to believe first so he can regenerate them, and so call them, and so on. It was a continous process which God initiates and finishes, with no participation from anyone.

 

those in hell are those chosen to be vessels of wrath by God. if you would like to say it is cause and effect. that still would denote the responsibilty of God being the cause and their existence in their environment being the effect.

they are there temporarily though. however long it is required of them to perform their task of being the smith in Gods furnace of affliction.

for who makes a person believe truth is the same person who foreordained those to be the smith for his furnace.

Its called election

 

(crashhh!!! falling off my chair !! gasp ! gasp !)

Ah, er, are you talking of purging, as in purgatory ?

 

Hi Pionybaptist;
When I first came to BB.com I thought I was a Calvinist. The reason was that I liked a certain gentleman in our church back home. He always claim to be a Calvinist, but you know I don't think he knew what he was talking about now. I sure didn't until I started reading some of the post here. At the time I thought a Baptist was a Baptist and that was what we all were. As I read the archives I discovered that I was a long way from agreeing with these guys. I never heard the the term Arminian until I started reading here. At first I thought that you were all spelling it wrong and just didn't want to say anything to embarrass anyone.
I wanted to say that Armenia is a country not a doctrine.

I grew up in a Christian Home, I grew up in Church. I knew the truth when I was very young but I rebelled against it. My experience in my own Salvation for me says You're wrong that we do have a decision to make. I'm sorry if my explanations aren't clear enough for everyone to understand right away but sadly there not.

It's not my wish to be the winner of a theological debate. It's only my desire that everyone have the opportunity to know the truth.
I don't feel Calvinism is that truth which is why I point out the discrepancies and contradictions I find in this doctrine. Just as you do to my doctrine.
We are alike in a lot of ways we both feel the frustrations of such a discussion. We both believe in the one and only true God. Belief in Him is what is most important, how you got there is reason for our discussion. Paul and Silas just told that Jailer to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. I can tell you that I'd much rather die than to deny Him. Jesus Christ is # 1 in my life. He hasn't always been so but I hope to overcome every obstacle that would prevent me.
May God Bless You: I have enjoyed our conversation Thankyou.
Mike

 

If all sinners were Totally Depraved as some insist, no one would find the Lord or be found of Him.

We are depraved and with that depravity we are also 'created after the likeness of God.'
[James 3:9] God can love, hate and has had a will to create and to guide the historicity of humankind. And since we are in many ways like God we can either love or hate, and we can either choose the Lord or reject His call via the Holy Spirit. The Lord's justice demands that humans have a free will, and that, all under the sovereignty of God.

Calvinists are right when they say that without the calling of the Spirit, no one will come to Jesus. When the truth is heard or just before it is heard, He moves into action and is ready to convict, convince and to change the heart of the one who believes in Him. The Holy Spirit is more active than most of us think. If you have a lost loved one, don't give up on that person. If he or she knows the salvation message, He is working on that soul. If they know the truth of Jesus, He never stops working on their never dying soul. Help is already on the way; the Spirit of God is calling and His providence is moving everyday to bring that one to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Sometimes He forces sinners into a corner so they will choose Jesus.

Only the evil one would suggest that that person is beyond reach. Fear not, the Lord via the Spirit of God will always be working in that persons life.

Pastor Berrian

 

Pinoybaptist,

If mans souls escape intact through the purging of their old works, then thats a good discription to use.

wether we pass by way of death ,the sea, hell..or go directly to the lake of fire..everybodies got to do it. everybody has to be purged of their old works.. even the elect!!!!

just in the elects case.
their "works" have been purging while they are living in their flesh. the lake of fire is still necessary and welcomed by all elect to rid them of their shame and memories of unrighteousness...

meaning it wont "hurt" the elect. yet they still have to pass through.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

we all receive the same (salvation) judgement pinoy. just in the case of the elect. it begins in this age.

Me2

 

Look at the entire context:

See, the major issue at hand here? Its the issue of who does God accept? Who is worthy of salvation? We know the answer to that. Its a given for us. Those who reject judge themselves unworthy, where as those who do believe show themselves as worthy. Therefore the argument the Jews are making is that they are the only ones worthy of eternal life and the apostles are countering that argument by saying that those who believe the truth prove their worthiness. The non-Jews prove by their faith that they have been chosen by God. So, when Luke writes, "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" he is not introducing some new concept of preappointment of certain individuals unto faith, that doesn't fit the context of what is being discussed at all. Instead he is merely restating the point that the apostles have been making all along throughout this entire passage and that is this: "As many groups of people and non-Jewish individuals as God had appointed to eternal life were proving their being appointed and their worthiness by the fact that they were believing unto salvation. In other words, their faith was the proof that God had appointed non-Jews to eternal life all along and that this was indeed God's choosing from the beginning to allow all men entrance into his covenant. Remember up to this point the Jews didn't think anyone but Jews would get enternal life and this was a very big issue in that day. It was the apostles fight to show and even prove that the Gentiles had been appointed to eternal life, just as the Jews, in fact anyone who believed proved their being appointed so what could anyone say in response to that?

 

Here we have a perfectly straightforward situation where Paul preaches to a crowd, the result of which is that "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Now, how could that possibly mean anything but that certain individuals believed as distinct from the others present, and that this belief was in consequence of those individuals having been ordained to eternal life? Are you seriously suggesting that any theologically impartial reader would conclude that Luke actually meant to say the following? -

This is desparate. When you yourself find it impossible to avoid speaking of "non-Jewish individuals," whom God had appointed to eternal life, how could you expect anyone else to accept this example of bizarre Dispensational exegesis?

- Paul

 

If mans souls escape intact through the purging of their old works, then thats a good discription to use.

wether we pass by way of death ,the sea, hell..or go directly to the lake of fire..everybodies got to do it. everybody has to be purged of their old works.. even the elect!!!!

just in the elects case.
their "works" have been purging while they are living in their flesh. the lake of fire is still necessary and welcomed by all elect to rid them of their shame and memories of unrighteousness...

meaning it wont "hurt" the elect. yet they still have to pass through.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

we all receive the same (salvation) judgement pinoy. just in the case of the elect. it begins in this age.

Me2 </font>[/QUOTE]Well, you know, reading your posts, I think a black cat just crossed my screen !

 

Thanks for that post. Very thoughtful!
One observation. I too have rebelled, like a dog returning to his vomit. I have chased earthly pleasure and vain glory from east to west only to find nothing. For the child of God the ONLY contentment and peace is found in God. Only through God's chastisement and His allowing me to find worldly emptiness through my own sinful flesh was I able to turn back to God. It was not a choice, it IS my home, my ONLY home. You can try and fit a square peg into a round hole all day long, it simply does not fit. The prodigal son who wasted everything his father had given him wallowing in the mire with the pigs was brought to such a place as well. Was it really a choice for the prodigal son to starve to death in the mud or go back to his true home and loving father? Think about it.

 

Pinoybaptist,

Are you sure that wasnt a herd of pigs? (mar 5:13)

Me2

 

Ray, You either missed this post, or are ignoring it. I hope the first, becuase I wouldn't want to think that you are intentionally ignoring the evidence. Surely you want to separate yourself from those things that are unChristian and poorly constructed. I repeat the post here, hoping you will answer it.

I don't need to reread your post. My question was not answered in it. You have repeatedly said in this forum that Hunt's book is an excellent work, well researched, and so on ... You, in fact, espouse many of the same opinions as Hunt does in his book. The point is that this review completely and thorougly discredits Hunt's work, his "scholarship," his method, and many of his arguments. You would learn much about the errors of Hunt's writings, and in addition see some of your own errors.

Why are quoting Geisler (another work of questionable value)???? My question was about Hunt. You said you did not disagree with one thing that he wrote. Yet what he wrote has been thorougly discredited. Quoting Geisler doesn't let you off the hook.

But the fact remains that you have wholeheartedly endorsed the misrepresentations, unethical use of sources, bad argumentation, and flat out error of Hunt's work. Are you ready to repudiate that?

 

Are you sure that wasnt a herd of pigs? (mar 5:13)

Me2 </font>[/QUOTE]

Hey, man, peace. No disrespect. No offense. If I came across that way, I apologize.

God bless.

 

Pinoybaptist,

I didnt take your comment seriously. I was just musing myself with the interractions of those with Jesus. I love parables. they contain a lot of truth.

I also apologise for any misunderstandings.

Your Brother in Christ
Me2

 

This is desparate. When you yourself find it impossible to avoid speaking of "non-Jewish individuals," whom God had appointed to eternal life, how could you expect anyone else to accept this example of bizarre Dispensational exegesis?

- Paul </font>[/QUOTE]Paul, you are blinded by your bias. I know because I used to think the exact same thing. Its difficult to view something objectively once you have become so used to seeing it one way. Any other view seems like a stretch, just as Calvinism seems like a stretch to those who first come to hear of it in light of more "Arminian" passages. Open up your mind just a bit and allow the context to speak for itself. Why would Luke throw in a comment about God predetermining certain individuals to believe to the neglect of all others within a context that is clearly striving to teach the principle that God had appointed, from the very beginning, that Gentiles would believe and be saved and that eternal life was NOT merely for Jewish people?

This interpretation is not a stretch at all and has been held to by many scholars and laymen for generations. Plus, what is so different from us adding, "to as many (groups of people) God has appointed to eternal life believed." and your saying, "he will draw all (kinds of people)" You have a double standard. When it benefits your doctrine you can add qualifiers but when it hurts you doctrine then its just manipulating the text. At least be consistant and admit the interpretation is possible.

 

Hi UMP;

IMHO if we are not chastised then we aren't His in the first place.Just as in Hebrews 12:8 But in;
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

It's that word "If" we endure. I have known some who will not stand for correction, even if they are pleaded with to do so by there loved ones.
Regretfully not everyone will endure the Chastening of God. Some turn against God because of it and never see it as correction but see it as unnecessary and unjust. We can't say that they aren't saved in the first place because, God did Chasten them. They just wouldn't accept it and learn from it. Being saved from sin, doesn't insure you won't ever sin again. I wish it did.

The story of prodigal son. It seems that a lot of people have to completely reach the end of there rope and staring there worst fears in the face before they make the right decision. Sadly though not everyone will make that right decision.
The prodigal sons brother some would think he should have been better off. He never left his fathers side, tried to do right but failed miserably to love his brother as him self. He could have done like his brother but despised him instead because of his jealousy. He most probably wanted and lusted after the same life his brother had lived. Which is the same sin as his brothers because it was in his heart. Instead of repenting as his brother he became hypocritical about it.

The most important of all of the commandments of Christ is to LOVE. Sometimes the hardest thing you'll ever do is love those who hate you.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Paul,

I wanted to add one other comment. I didn't even get into the defination of the word "appointed" because I don't think its that relevant to the overall intent of the text, but others do and I wanted you to see their take on it as well for it comes to the same conclusion that it is a Jew/Gentile issue not a elect/non-elect issue. This is from Adam Clarke:

I put in bold the point I was attempting to make. Read Acts 28:21-28 as it explains the "dispostion" of the Jew verses the dispostion of the Gentile. "...the Gentiles will listen" the text clearly states. Why? Because they have not grown hardened to God's revelation, not because God chose certain individuals over others as you presume upon the text.

 

Pastor Larry,

I wrote on this board before as you said and I recall that other posters finally got you to say that, in fact, you never even read, "What Kind of Love Is This?" So what you are probably doing is depending on your Calvinist friends who did read it. And since there only defense of their view of the faith is to discredit it, you have followed the lead duck, so to speak. This is less than scholarly on your part. Maybe God has given you the spirit of fairness and the opportunity to review your biasness by actually reading the text, written by Mr. Dave Hunt. The question remains, "Have you read this book that refutes Calvinism's predeterminism and concepts of fate?"

Your statement was, 'Why are quoting Geisler (another work of questionable value)????

Ray: Dr. Geisler is very insightful on a lot of things, but at times he has made wrong statements. Perhaps you mean Dr. Clark H. Pinnock who was once a Calvinist. He is professor of theology at Mc Master Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. He also taught at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and the University of Manchester from which he earned his doctorate in N.T. studies. He has authored "Biblical Revelation; Reason Enough and The Scripture Principle." He also at times makes mistatements.

My question was about Hunt. You said you did not disagree with one thing that
he wrote. Yet what he wrote has been thorougly discredited.'

Ray: Discredited by who?

You said, 'Quoting Geisler doesn't let you off the hook.'

Ray: I was pointing out through Dr. Geisler that he agreed with our interpretation which says,
' . . . as many as were appointed to eternal life believed,' which is taken out of the Book of Acts 13;48. The word that more clearly states the truth about 'appointed' is the word, 'disposed.' As many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. The Spirit of God was drawing or wooing these Gentiles to accept Jesus.

Regards . . .

 

Ray, This is a straightforward question and answer. The review I gave showed clear and irrefutable faults in Hunt's work, method, ethics, and conclusions. Have you read the review? Are you prepared to separate yourself from his work since it is so flawed?

Geisler may agree with you, but that is not the point. IT was a change of subject, not to mention the fact that Geisler is wrong, as AT Robertson and others have shown.

Clark Pinnock has given adequate evidence that he is an unbeliever, having repudiated the biblical doctrine of salvation in Christ.

But to bring up these men is simply an attempt to change the subject from the issue I am asking about.

Given that:

1. Hunt has been shown to be unethical in his method.
2. Hunt has been shown to be wrong in his conclusions.
3. Hunt has been shown to be shoddy in his research and method ...

Will you repudiate this man's "work" as you should?

 

Hunt may be faulted for trying to get people to say things they did not really say (like Spurgeon rejecting Limited Atonement), and going overboard on the guilt by RCC association, but that in itself then does not disprove that interpretation of Acts 13:48, whether Robertson actually agreed or not. People are tying to throw out the whole book because of tangents like this, yet Calvinists certainly make false statments about Arminianism (maybe not misquoting people, but rather the whole general judgment about us having a weak god, false gospel that does not really save. But no one discredits their whole books (and acts as if the opposite positions is proven by default) just on that.

Also, I've just noticed something:

On one hand, you always deny that people are naturally willing to come to God, but God prevents them; because they naturally gravitated away from God, and God has to change their course. Yet now, you're saying that God does not actually "make" them do anything. He just "opens their mind", and then, they seem to suddenly, naturally come by themselves. That does make it sound like people tnd to gravitate toward Him, but are "prevented" from coming by something. Then, you take into consideration, the interpretation of Rom.9 and others, that it was God who so "blinded" or "hardened" them in the first place, then we see the objection from Arminians (including the much decried persistant statements by the likes of Hunt, Ray, and others) that God is the one shutting people out who could otherwise come.
Just pointing out this observation.