What makes the difference?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    This question has been asked by me and others dozens of time, not once has there been an answer that I know of.
    I think once there was an "I don't know" at least that was an attempt.
    Anyway, please answer this:

    If You believe man has a freewill to choose God, why do some choose God and others refuse him?
    What makes the difference?

    Simple question! ;-)
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    I chose Him because I did not want to die and go to a devil's hell, also I wanted to go to Heaven.

    Now, those who did not choose Him have a different mind than I have and only they could give you an answer for not choosing God.

    Now that is a simply, but truthful answer, for I doubt if the ones who did not choose Him, could tell you why I did.

    You are using what the Calvinist have been taught to ask since Calvin. They have been given the answer over and over but refuse to accept it. IMO

    I could continue to ask you over and over as you ask this question. How do you know you are one of the "elect"? Maybe you have been blinded.
     
  3. npetreley

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    Good luck. I've asked this question many times and I have never gotten a straightforward answer other than "I don't know" and "Because I was raised in a Christian environment". The latter answer is a poor one because it doesn't account for anyone but people who are raised that way, but at least it was an attempt at a straightforward answer.
     
  4. npetreley

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    That isn't the same type of question. Your question is equivalent to "How do you know you are saved?" That question is easy to answer for Calvinists and everyone else.

    The equivalent question for Calvinists would be, "Why did God choose you instead of someone else? What is it that was different about you that God would choose you instead of someone else?" Calvinists can't answer that question because God doesn't tell us why He chose one person over another. It was God's choice, not ours.

    Free-willers, however, should be able to answer the question, because they claim that they made the choice, not God. They should be able to explain what was different about them that they would say "yes" when another person said "no". You explained why you think you said "yes", but you didn't explain what was different about you that you would say "yes" and another person would say "no". All you did was shift the focus of the question to, "Why did you want to avoid hell and go to heaven, but another person didn't?"
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    That just is not true npet; how can a saved person get into the mind of an unsaved person, only God knows that. As far as you saying it would be easy for a Calvinist to answer they know they are the "elect" is not an easy question either. You tell me how you know you are the elect, except by having faith that you are.
     
  6. npetreley

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    It seems very easy to me. The Bible even tells us why people reject Jesus. So knowing why someone says "no" should be a piece of cake.

    The trick is explaining what made you different that you said "yes". You can tell us the thought process you went through (you wanted to avoid hell, etc.) But that doesn't tell us WHY you were better than that other person. And, yes, it does come down to being better.

    I don't understand why you think this is any different than knowing you are saved. Do you know you are saved? How do you know that? Your answer should be the same as the person who explains how they know they are elect. The Spirit bears witness to us that we are saved, and we couldn't possibly be saved if were weren't elect. Can't get much simpler than that.
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    So, how do you "know" that the Bible is the true written word?

    Have you in your entire life ever doubted that you were truly saved?

    2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

    Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

    1Jo 4:1 ΒΆ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Still come down to faith doesn't it?
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Jul 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2007
  8. Bro. Williams

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    Boy this one is easy, although I know that whetever answer I give will be considered a poor one by the elite... uh.. i mean elect.

    The answer to the question is, "the same reason some people take free samples at the store and others don't".

    The difference? Some people want the free sample, some people don't.

    Next question. (and I wasn't "raised" this way btw)
     
  9. webdog

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    Not entirely true. The fact is WE can't know why a person who goes to hell didn't choose to follow what truth was revealed to them. There is NO WAY we can know another man's heart. This has been stated NUMEROUS times here on the BB. The fact is, calvinists NEED an answer, even if there isn't one.
     
  10. npetreley

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    Why did you want free samples? What made you want them?

    (You were hungry)

    Why were you hungry?

    (You hadn't eaten anything that day)

    Why hadn't you eaten anything that day?

    Keep asking the logical questions that follow. I can tell you where you'll end up, but it's better if you find out for yourself.
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Why do you have a problem that he just wanted it? Is this some CA thing or what?
     
  12. npetreley

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    The Bible says very clearly why people reject Jesus and do not believe in Him.

    We can know very easily why some people don't accept Him. It's written for us in black and white.
     
  13. AresMan

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    Ok. Making an informed "decision" about one's eternal destiny can be explained as some kind of statistically random, completely libertarian, eeny-meeny-miney-moe "choice"?

    The question of why one "chooses" Christ and another doesn't begs many more questions. For example:

    1. The question presupposes a foundational assumption of a literal heaven and hell. Why does one believe that there is a hell and a heaven while another does not? Why does one believe he needs a Saviour and another does not? Why does one believe that Jesus Christ is God and that His historical death on the Cross has effectual significance for mankind and another does not?

    2. If the "reason" is merely a random anomaly expressing a tabula rasa libertarian "free will", then do you believe that God actually subjects one to eternal torment because he merely did not stumble upon the correct choice statistically? Does God do all within His (omnipotent) power to persuade one to believe? If so, and that is not enough, then is there actually a threshold that God cannot pass, and by definition, there are those who cannot be saved?

    3. If the "reason" is not merely a random anomaly, then what makes the difference and from whence does it come? Is one wiser, more spiritually inclined, more humble, less proud, and possesses more ability to be such than another? Does the difference come from God or man?

    I am sure that even this case begs other questions:

    1. Is there any particular motivation that would drive one to take the free sample (ooo! free stuff!) and another not to take it (addiction? advertising?)?

    2. Is one actually wiser than the other in this choice, if indeed, one of the choices yields a better result than the other? Does this, then, mean that one is better, deserves the result (in some manner), or contributes merit (in some manner) to the result by being, of his own power, better than another?

    You haven't adequately answered the first. :D
     
  14. webdog

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    That does not tell you the why's...
     
  15. npetreley

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    Really? I always thought the answer to "why" was "because".

    I see the "because" there, don't you? How much more clear can it get than that?
     
  16. webdog

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    Why aren't they sheep?

    Why are they unable to hear?

    Kind of like your grocery store pit stops...eh?
     
  17. npetreley

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    Because they aren't. Some are His sheep. Some aren't. The only reason you want more than that is because you're already convinced that goats can make the decision to become sheep. The Bible never says any such thing. It says there are goats, and there are sheep. Period. Furthermore, He says, "MY sheep". They BELONG TO Him, as opposed to BELONGING TO the devil.

    Because they BELONG TO their father, the devil. It says that right in the text. Why are you unable to read and understand it?

    .
     
    #17 npetreley, Jul 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2007
  18. webdog

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    Why?
    Why?

    See, your "because" is hardly that.
     
  19. npetreley

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    The Bible answers that, too.

    They belong to Him because the Father gave them to Him. If the Father didn't give them to Him, they would belong to the devil.

    All the answers you need are in the Bible. Just read it.
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Posted by Ares;
    We could drive ourselves insane too. :)

    Why don't you understand why?
     

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