What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. BobRyan

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    In May 2010 Chowmah starts a thread on the 10 Commandments with this comment

    Since the thread is full - and closed... I add this comment here

    1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

    In Eph 6:1-5 we are told that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment" in that still-authorotative group of 10, that has a promise associated with it.

    In James 2 we are told that if we break one of them we break all.

    In John 14:15 - "if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" -- using the pre-cross context of commandments.

    John repeats this in 1John 2 saying that those who claim to know and love Christ should keep His Commandments.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Here is a Fox News channel debate on the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1aCRyPPjs

    It appears that both Huckabee and Alan are right on certain points and both are wrong on certain points.

    Huckabee is right to point out that the 10 Commandments cannot be edited/ammended or changed in any way.

    Alan is right to point out that Christianity has attempted changes to the Ten Commandments - by cancelling various ones that certain groups did not like (in the case of both the 2nd and 4th commandments)

    --------------------

    But both are wrong in this regard -

    Huckabee tries to recast the rejecting of certain commandments as "no change".

    Alan appears to argue that changing the commandments is a good thing and thus that the Bible is editable by man-made tradition.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. annsni

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    We obey because we believe. We do not obey in order to gain salvation.
     
  4. SpiritualMadMan

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    Absolutely! Amen!
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    The unbelieving Jews also say, What matters is keeping the 10 Commandments; they also claim they keep the 4th Commandment. What does it avail them? If it availed the Jews NOTHING, what is it going to avail the Christian?

    STILL NOTHING!

    Worthless energy wasted!

    The Ten Commandments having been 'made' works-righteousness by synergists like the SDAs and Judaists, has been dishonoured and reduced to "the commandments of men".
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    A debate about the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments A PRIORI is doomed futile and become bickering about the Law in which no Christian can have or should have any interest.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    It is nice that we can find agreement on that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Dec 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2010
  8. billwald

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    Commandments to WHOM? Where in Exo thru Deut does it teach that the Mosiac Covenant applies to gentiles outside THE LAND?

    The Jews, the people who delivered Exo thru Deut to the people in Jesus' time and following count 613 commandments. Why do the people who criticize Christians from tossing one command join with Christians in tossing 602 commands?

    Why do Christians who claim only 10 commandments or 9 commandments "count" also criticise lesbian activity? This criticism is not paralleled in any NT teaching. Anyone who can't tell there are basic differences between lesbian and homosexual activity should take another look. Pun intended.
     
  9. th1bill

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    Bob,
    There is a document, a letter written to the Believers in Christ and it is in fact written by a man that spent three year (Galatians) seated under the one on one tutelage of Jesus, the Christ after His resurrection. This document is popularly known as the Letter to the Romans but is, in fact, The Christian Manifesto!

    From the Christian Manifesto we learn that the Mosaic Law, all six hundred and thirteen of them, are our teacher. We also learn from this document that we will never, because of our nature, manage to keep all six hundred and thirteen laws without violating one and when we break the one, yes, we are guilty of all of them. From this truth a question just screams to be answered, "Of what possible use are the Laws? The answer is simple and logical, in the words of the Mosaic Law we see the perfect Word Illustration or Painting of God!

    None of us will ever live the Ten let alone the Six Hundred and Thirteen but it is the example we are to strive for. But then there looms that certain failure and for that reason we must, not just believe but, accept the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives and learn that we were paid for with a price and then learn to love, not just like, being His slaves. It's just as He stated, His yoke is light.
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    There is ONE 'law' throughout ALL Scripture whereby ALL men are judged sinners and condemned sinners--- the ONLY 'law' of God's EVER speaking in WHICHEVER way whether in ceremonial or moral or social or health 'law' NO MATTER! And that 'law in English is the four letter word: 'LOVE!' 'LOVE God ... LOVE one's neighbour.

    There is no such thing as transgression of God's 'law' than the transgression of or against 'LOVE'. There is NO unrighteousness that is not the unrighteousness of not having obeyed the law of God his law: 'Thou shalt LOVE!'.

    If every man comes short of the righteousness which is the righteousness of God's, it is because of the strength of this law: 'LOVE'. There is NO reward of sin that is not the reward by the law of 'LOVE'. Death is the payment by and of the law, 'LOVE!'

    THEREFORE let every man shut his mouth! Who is not THE transgressor of that law man so EASILY BOASTS he is the fulfiller of and obedient to?

    ALL men are EQUAL LIARS before only ONE law, God's Word that commands: "Thou shalt LOVE!"
     
  11. BobRyan

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    1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the commands of God".

    in John 14:15 Jesus speaking pre-cross to his Jewish followers "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

    James 2 quotes the Ten Commandments claiming that they are binding on Christians today.

    Eph 6:1-4 Paul says that the 5th commandment is the first one in that unit of ten "with a promise" and that they are binding on mankind.

    1John 3:4 says that the Law of God defines sin. Paul argues the same case in Romans 4 and in Romans 7.

    Paul says that God's Law places the entire world under the condemnation due to sin in Romans 3.

    I.e - still valid today.

    1050 NT commands -- http://www.puritan-books.com/books/pdf/new_testament_commands.pdf

    And who is saying that the only part of the OT that is valid is the Ten Commandments??


    Hint - Romans 1, Lev 18.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    That much is true.

    In Gal 3 Paul argues that the Law is binding even on NT people declaring that all are lost and that all are in need of salvation. It is the law that defines sin.

    Then when we choose salvation "when faith comes" to each individual we are released from the condemnation of the Law that defines sin.

    Hower in Romans 6 Paul points out that we are NOT to sin simply because we are now under grace. Thus as John says in 1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin not".

    In 1John 2 we are also told that the one who claims to know Christ should walk as Christ walked.

    As noted above - In the NT we are given 1050 commands to follow.

    In 1Cor 6 Paul speaking to the church says "be not deceived" and then gives a list of sins saying that those who do such things WILL NOT go to heaven. He says this because he finds them to be in error and insists that they change course or face the results.

    In Romans 2 Paul says it is "NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED".

    Amen! Preach it!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    What do you mean here by change course or face the results?

    That they needed to be saved, or start doing works, turn over a new leaf? Is this ("they" as in your statement) written to believers, the lost, both, and what advantage then is this if it is written to believers, that believers must do things, change course, to assist Christ? I am asking for clarification on this, as it is not clear what you mean to me at least.

    How do we apply and interpret this "change course or face the results?"
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    Did you know that Jesus said in John 7:19 that NONE of the Jews ever kept the law? NONE! Were they commanded to keep it? Yes! Did any Keep it? No! Does any human being apart from Christ ever keep the law? No "NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10). Can ANY FLESH keep the law? "NO flesh shall be justified by the deeds of the law"!

    The Bible contrasts justification by doing the law versus by the "hearing of faith" in the gospel and doing the law is "not of faith" (Gal. 3:10-12).

    Your problem is that you refuse to accept Jesus Christ as "the end of the law for righteousness" in regard to justification before God. You are like those in Matthew 7:21-23 who want their cake and eat it to. They are a "Lord, Lord" believer plus "have we not done" doers of the law and they end up in hell because you cannot mix the foundation (Christ's provision) with the house (life) (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

    You pervert Romans 2 and jerk it completely out of context. You ignore that James 2:11-12 is introduced by the condition found in verse 10. You confuse progressive sanctifiction that deals with only with spiritual growth and temporal blessings here and now and rewards later with justification and entrance into heaven and thus reverse Ephesians 2:8-10 making "good works" unto salvation instead of "good works" the product of having already been regenerated/converted/justified. Your gospel is "accursed" and contrary to the role model of all that believe - Abraham who was justified:

    1. without works - Rom. 4:1-5
    2. Remission of sins without works and ordinances - Rom. 4:6-12
    3. Justified without law keeping - Rom. 4:13-15
    4. Saving faith without personal assistance or personal performance - Rom. 4:16-21

    Your gospel is nothing more than the gospel of Judaism that mixes faith with works in order to be justiifed by your own life with a little help from God pulling yourself up by your own boot straps and yet you call it grace.
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    I think the big difference is between you and BobRyan is that Bobryan is making an argument for sanctification. We can't keep the law 100% but does that mean we can't try to live rightly? Or that we should just give up on sanctification? Do you think God wants us to throw up our hands and give up on holiness?
     
  16. convicted1

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    We can't keep the Law(the Ten Commandments) now, just like Israel couldn't in OT times. The 10 Commandments were written to the OT Jews and not us(am I in the minority on this?).

    Matt. 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

    35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

    29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

    26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

    27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

    28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    The NT commands given to us is this, love everyone just as Jesus has loved us.


    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    what is often over looked with this point of view. Is that if we do as you suggest and I'm not suggesting you are wrong; it requires that you lay down your life for others.

    Sanctification, holiness, are all methods to become more christlike so that we may be like him and be so selfless as to lay down our lives for others.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    More precisely Paul makes that argument in Romans 2:13 and Christ makes it in Matt 7.

    To continually circle back to the POV of the lost person who obviously stands condemned as a law-breaker is to miss key parts of the of the Gospel.

    1. The New Birth that we see at the end of 2Cor 5 and in Romans 8.
    2. Freedom from slavery to sin that we see in Romans 6 and 1Johh 2:1.

    It is "nice" that some people are so clear on the fact that the lost cannot earn salvation by "doing good" but the fact that they keep bringing this "POV of the lost person" up each time Romans 2 or Romans 6, or 1Cor 6,or Romans 8 or Matt 7 or 1Cor 7:19 or 1John 2 or ... comes up, shows us that they are missing a lot of the gospel by trying to shoehorn the whole thing into "The lost cannot earn salvation" which is not a point being denied here.

    Paul argues for moving past the infant stage in Heb 5 and 6 saying "NOT laying again a doctrine of repentance" - but moving on to the meat of the Gospel. As with any field of study the first principles doe not become invalid simply because you are going on to the more advanced concepts.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Dec 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2010
  19. BobRyan

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    To argue that all have sinned is to stand on good Bible grounds -

    To argue that Christians remain as slaves to sinning no matter what Paul says to the contrary in Romans 6, no matter what Christ said in Matt 7 and no matter what John says in 1John 2 is to miss the point of the gospel.

    Paul not only highlights freedom from slavery to sin in Romans 6 but he also does it in 1Cor 10 "No sin has overtaken you but such as is common to man, God is faithful who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able".

    And in 1John 2:4-6 we are told that the one who claims to be enslaved to sin while claiming to know Christ - is not telling the truth.

    In Romans 3 Paul states "Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law".

    No wonder Paul can say "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

    In Matt 22 (before the cross) Christ claims that Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" and Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" are the two great commandments -- the foundation bedrock upon which rests all the remaining laws of God. The Jews actually agree with Christ on that point in Matt 22. This is a well established OT understanding of the Law of God.

    You appear to be happy with that POV and the good news is that it has not changed from OT to NT.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Dec 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2010
  20. convicted1

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    I understand what you mean by this statement. What I actually mean is that we should help the sinners just as much as our Brothers and Sisters in Christ. We are to love everyone, and give to everyone, and we are not to make repect of persons. Sorry about the confusion, and thanks for correction!!:thumbs::thumbs:

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
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