What motivates you to serve the Lord?

HP: Why you would bring up this text is beyond me. It clearly establishes that one can indeed fall from a state of salvation. Oh well, stranger texts have been brought up.

It would seem obvious to me that there are two types of falling. There is total apostasy, where an individual once saved has turned from the faith and denied that Jesus is the Son of God. There is another type of falling that is when one that is saved, under extreme temptation fall sand comes under condemnation and the relationship one once had is at least temporally severed due to sin.

In the first, a complete separation has taken place, a complete denial of the Deity and or existence of Christ, from which there is no return. This might be much like the sin of blasphemy, where the Holy Spirit is completely withdrawn. From such a state there is no hope but the hope of everlasting destruction. The individual, having denied Christ His rightful existence, has no possibility of being renewed according to this text. That should sound an alarm in the hearts and minds of every believer, that the possibility does in fact exist for a believer to leave his first estate and completely and eternally enter a state of irreparable apostasy.

Still, there is no reason to believe that one cannot fall into sin, lose ones present hope of eternal life, and subsequently repent and turn back to the Lord and be completely and totally restored to fellowship and a sure hope of eternal life. There is nothing in this text that would deny the validity of other texts clearly stating this possibility in some cases.

Simply put, the text in question speaks only to a state of irreparable apostasy that is a possibility for a believer in this present world, although again that does not have to necessarily be the case when one falls. He can, under some conditions, be entirely and completely restored just as many other texts clearly indicate is possible. There is no contradiction between this or any other text.

 

Quote:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6)

If "severed" is the action done to those who "fall away" , equating to "loss of salvation once had", then there is no way they could be grafted in again.

You'll have to do some rightful dividing to get the two passages to harmonize.


HP: Why you would bring up this text is beyond me. It clearly establishes that one can indeed fall from a state of salvation.

GE:

O no, it does NOT! It supposes the IMPOSSIBLE: "For it is impossible ..." You forget (or ignore) this conditional clause, and read "If they shall fall away" as if it no longer applies. You should still read: "For it is impossible if they shall fall away". The writer for this very reason just a litlle futher says, "I am convinced of better things concerning you" - true believers. Saying 'true believers' is unecessary, a 'believer' being always a true believer.

 

GE:

What!? Are you afraid to be 'forced or coerced' by God? Then are you afraid of the POWER of God - the 'Force' behind the regeneration of His own creation?

Why is it we so protest against God the Potter as should He accept us just as the lump of clay we are without his workmanship on and to ourselves? You think less a Force could do better? you think the further from the will of God for us the better? That the more of ourselves the more God-like would we be?

 

HP: The problem is that if you accept the notion that our actions and or fate are the forced or coerced will of God, you cannot escape God forcing or coercing all the evil acts and or the fate of man as well. You necessitate God as the author of all evil when you make Him the coercer of all good. What a horrible blight such a notion paints upon the Holy and Righteous character of a Just God.

If I were to accept your position, it would be impossible for man to be accepted as a moral being, and absurd to consider man as responsible for his intents and actions. Nothing could be further from reality and the testimony of reason, experience, and Scripture.

 

In Heb 6 we see the case of those who are fully brought into the light and experience all the benefits of salvation - yet fall away with no way back to the Gospel since they fully experienced it -- and then in the light of day rejected it. They are in the same condition as Lucifer who could not be redeemed.


But there are others who fall and ARE not so hardened! Adam is a good example of one who fell and yet is returned once again to fellowship with God.


In Romans 11 we see the case of those who fall and yet are still not so hardened that they can not choose to repent and then be grafted back in "again".

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

HP: Now here is an interesting verse. I am certain it could just as well say, knowing the love of God we persuade men, but it does not say that. Any ideas as to why God chose terror in this verse to persuade Christians to persuade men? Is the ‘terror of the Lord’ spoken of here a clear and just motivation to serve Him ?

 

In Exodus 20 we are told that the knees of the people were shaking as they said "Do not Let God speak to us any more lest we die" and God said through Moses that "He" DID this on purpose so that the "Fear of the Lord might be upon them and they would not be so willing to sin against Him".

In Proverbs we are told that that same "fear of the LORD" is the beginning of Wisdom.

in Isaiah 8 God sais that we are not to fear what others fear - rather "Let ME be your DREAD" says the LORD in Isaiah 8...

In Exodus 5:2 "Who is the LORD that I should obey His voice" - and the answer comes with fire and plague and death -

In all cases both OT and NT when God's people see Him -- they fall down and worship and even that is not 'seeing Him as He is" 1John 3:1-3 until the 2nd coming.

The teddy-bear religion of today has no place for the God of the Bible that calls for BOTH Love and shock-and-awe.


A benefit of holding to the 4th commandment is that it becomes a weekly reminder not only of our SAVIOR God in whom we find REST - but also (and explicitly) of our CREATOR God in whom we move and exist and find our being. The one who "upholds all things" by His Word Col 1

Matt 10 "Do not FEAR those who kill the body and after that have no power to kill the soul - but rather FEAR Him who destroys BOTH Body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

Rev 14:7-8 "Fear God and give glory to Him because the HOUR of His JUDGMENT has come - Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of water".

By contrast "teddy-bear" religion results predictably in "denial of God's Creative work" to embrace atheist darwinism - it also results in a denial that the warnings of the Bible about falling from perseverance are "real" to the point that "sin as you please and go to heaven anyway" becomes an actual explicit doctrinal statement for some.

in Christ,

Bob

 

My motivation

LOVE

for my Redeemer

 

Then one can be saved and then at a future time severed from Christ but still saved while they are living severed from Christ? Is this what you are saying?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

HP: Simply put, the text in question speaks only to a state of irreparable apostasy that is a possibility for a believer in this present world, although again that does not have to necessarily be the case when one falls. He can, under some conditions, be entirely and completely restored just as many other texts clearly indicate is possible. There is no contradiction between this or any other text.

HP: No, neither did I imply any such notion. Salvation is not an object. Salvation is a hope, a relationship, and a probationary period in this life to prove out whether or not we love God. It is not over until we stand before God in judgment, when He will be the final judge as to what our standing has been and is then judged to be for all eternity.

 

Romans 11 SAYS it appeals to "fear" in it's message to those who "ARE standing by faith"
Matt 10 SAYS it appeals to "fear" as it commissions the twelve apostles to go out and evangelize.

Is it your position that God "was in error"??

This is brought up time after time - and the response seems to be to gloss over inconvenient details of scripture that get in the way of "a good story".

Where is the "LOVE of the truth" in that approach??

(BTW to be fair - this kind of debate occurs internally within all denominations -- even my own)

in Christ,

Bob

 

I see. Your pov has no knowledge as to wether or not one can be absolutlely certain they are saved, one must wait until judgment day. Your pov does not know?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

We can KNOW we are saved by entering into fellowship with Christ and as we see in Romans 8 "the Spirit bears WITNESS with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" Rom 8:16 -- this is transaction and interactive.

It is experienced daily but the lack of the experience does not mean you are lost -- it simply means you are being careless not going to God for confirmation.

In Jeremiah 7 the people of God were told NOT to invent man-made doctrines about God being "locked in a box - forced to defend and save Israel no matter what" just because they had "forever promises" about God and the name of God regarding the temple. In Jer 7 they are told NOT to rely on false gospels about "the temple of the Lord, the Temple of the Lord" promising peace and safety to a people in rebellion.

Yet that is one of the forms of OSAS we find still hanging around today.


The consistent Arminian who rejects the man-made tradition of OSAS can KNOW he is "saved today" but can not know if he will choose to remain saved ten years from today. The 3 and 5 point calvinist (and all Arminians who inconsitently choose THAT solution for OSAS) can not even know that since they will retro-delete TODAY's assurance when it turns out that they fail to persevere ten years from today!

(And then there are those who like the 4 point Calvinists - slash-and-burn the Bible doctrine on perseverance to try to get out of the problem above)

in Christ,

Bob

 

The other day, I was getting ready to leave work for home. I was in my car and one of my co-workers comes out and tells me that another co-worker(who hadn't worked that night) called and told me the way I usually go home(99.9%) was blocked. I took another way home that was probably 10-15 miles longer. A few minutes before I got home, I saw a revival sign that was posted besides the road. I went the following night and witnessed two people who gave their lives to the Lord!! I usually don't do a lot of the revivals(don't like all the begging that goes on at the end of each service) but I have to work every other weekend, and I go where I can to get a meal from on High.

I serve my God because I love Him, and what He did, and does, for me. He amazes me all the time. He is always there when I need Him! He saved my ever-dying soul!! Do any of us need more motivation than that?

Willis

 

Let's say for the sake of the argument that seems to be presented above that it is up to us to determine which texts make it into the Bible. (Or in the modern example - Which ones should Christians be told that they should read?)

Question: What about just letting the ones in about "God so Loved the World that HE GAVE His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life" John 3:16 ??

What about DELETING the ones like John 15 (Same author AND same Christ speaking in John 15 as in John 3) telling us that those who are IN CHRIST that do not bear fruit REMOVED from Christ - and that they DO perish and are burned in the fire?



And so - what about deleting Romans 11??

In other words - IF the Bible is "up for a vote" and we get to pick and choose which way we want to be motivated, encouraged, reminded etc -- then why not pick the carrot texts (the staff of the good shepherd) and through out the stick (the rod of the good shepherd)?

That seems to be the form the discussion is taking lately. Which texts "do you prefer" seems to be the question.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I disagree Bob. I don't see it like you that the opposition wants to delete verses. I see it as a rightly dividing the truth issue. The text you hold dearly as proof that one can lose salvation after having it are simply just being misapplied and misinterpreted.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Amen brother!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

Well you are right about one thing - it is all about rightly reading the Word of God.

but the wild and empy claim that I have misapplied something needs something more than wishful thinking to support it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Steaver, you seem adamant about ones love for God as being sufficient to motivate one to love God, and I believe that to be absolutely commendable. Let me ask you, how is it working in your life?