What? No Thread About Pinckney's Proposed Resolution?

Gene: Thanks for your post, and thanks NC Baptists!

 

I will say this much and only this much, because I will not openly attack the character of a Christian brother. However, I will express my opinion as a NC Baptist.

T.C. Pinkney has a long, how shall I say, "rhetorical," history in the VA State Convention, even among those of us in the conservative arm of the neighboring state convention.

With regard to motive, therefore, "consider the source." In other words...if you want to find out the motive, then research his history with his state convention, the SBC, and the SBC committee or boards on which he has served.

I will leave it at that.

 

Gene: Thanks for your post, and thanks NC Baptists! </font>[/QUOTE]You're welcome. I think they made a very good statement.

I am not a product of the public school system. I went to a Christian school from first through twelfth grade and attended Wingate University, a NC Baptist College. I do not have children, nor shall I ever (long story), and I do acknowledge the public school system has its share of problems. However, there can be no change in it if Christians withdraw from it. Not only that, if we do, then we will have no right whatsoever to decry its problems, to sit on school boards, etc., in my opinion. Two members of my own church sit on the local school board.

The church of which I am a member has its own Christian school. However, if I was not a member of that church or did not have children or family members in the school itself, I would have no right to complain about the school in my opinion. I certainly would be powerless to affect change in the school. That's basically what Pinckney's resolution seems to forget and what makes it so frankly absurd.

I would expect that messengers attached to churches that administer Christian schools, as well as messengers from churches with members actively serving in public school systems would all oppose the resolution strongly if it was presented to the Convention.

 

Imagine what that resolution will look like in the press. I doubt it will do anything for the cause of Christ.

Just to think that anyone could get that much press over such a stupid issue is quite a slam on Baptists. Just to think about the arrogance of such a man to think that the SBC is so great and that pulling the SBC children from schools is going to make any difference. It would make zero difference where I live because most of the SBC have adults whose children have children that don't attend an SBC church here.

 

RandR: Something happened today that makes me think we probably know each other. Since you do not accept PMs or e-mail from forum participants, will you please shoot me an e-mail message when you get a chance? THANKS!

 

Just some thoughts on the comments posted here concerning the Christian Education Resolution. I have to admit that I am taken back by the number of posts that are completely void of any kind of discussion and/or debate about an issue that deserve our most careful consideration. Personal attacks have taken the place of thoughtful comment and they dismiss concerns that the church would be wise to heed.

Granted, this issue is one in which emotions run high, but considering the state of our government education system, the state of the nation, and the state of the church today, one would think that petty attacks might give way to some more critical and meditative thinking about this issue.

The salt & light argument is all too often the only argument leveled against Christian Education advocates and its users seem to believe this particular argument somehow nullifies all the other issues involved - but does it? I don't think so. That argument may have been acceptably dismissive in the past, but much has been done to sufficiently expose it as a theologically weak argument.

Some of the questions we do need to consider are: In light of the whole of Scripture, how can we believe that sending our children to an “educational” system that does not honor God, does not thank God, and doesn’t even acknowledge His existence be a choice with which God will be well pleased? (Matt. 12:39) Do we think that our Lord is blind to the fact that statistically a large percentage of Christian children come away from their 5-day a week, 12 year long “education/indoctrination,” with secular/humanist worldviews? Is this covenant faithfulness? Are we unconcerned that this large majority of Christian public school students have been taught to be double-minded men and women. Does this mean nothing as it concerns whether or not we really are salt and light? Again, the statistics show that they (and us, for that matter) do not bring every thought captive to Christ because Christ has been absent from the foundation of their (and our) knowledge and learning. As is said, “once the dye has been in the wool, it is hard to get it out of the cloth.”. Can these children do their apologetics and do they evangelize? Perhaps some can and do, but more importantly, are they capable of thinking and reasoning from the scriptures – in other words, is their worldview biblical? The sad answer to that question is that the statistics reveal a staggering NO and yet the church stubbornly refuses to grapple with the facts. We are in denial and not surprisingly, everyone’s children who are in the system are supposedly the exception to the statistic. To suggest otherwise might get you lynched. Our comparisons seldom go beyond one another (I went to public school, I’m ok) to God’s standard (2Corinthians 10:12). It’s no wonder God called Israel a stiff-necked people.

We are good “American” Christians and therefore, we tend to look at things solely as rugged individuals. Our thinking rarely comprehends the biblical concept of “the people of God”. We do not think corporately and we do not understand that decisions have an impact on more than just our own families. As one of my favorite preachers said recently, “the power of incoherent thinking and the resultant disobedience should never be underestimated.” We have bought into the myth of neutrality and thought it wouldn’t matter, but it has. Our educational teleology is skewed and we don’t even understand what the biblical purpose or definition of education is. And sadly, much of what passes for Christian education is nothing more than a “Christianized” version of the world’s system. Paul’s ideas in Ephesians 6:4 are pretty much foreign to us (the all encompassing paideia of God which was nothing short of the enculturation of the individual) and the church and our nation suffers because of it. Judgment begins in the household of faith and our temptation to blame everyone else (the NEA, the homosexuals, the federal government, etc.) is part of our problem. Elijah needs to reappear and go through the Mt. Carmel exercise with the people of God today. Our education system has become our Baal and we refuse to even consider our own form of idolatry.

How long will we falter? How long will we prefer the world to lead while we follow? As one man put it, "How long will we choose to dine at the trough when God gives us the opportunity to feast with the King?" How long before we discover that the emperor has no clothes and not only that but that he's as deaf as Baal in I Kings 18.

Too much is at stake to dismiss this resolution before we even truly consider whether or not it contains biblical truth. I think it does. The time for discussion is late and I for one am thankful that this resolution is being considered. Our educational teleology is skewed and we aren’t thinking much like Christians on the subject. And sadly, much of what passes for Christian education is nothing more than a “Christianized” version of the world’s system. We need to pray that God will be merciful to us and show us the way to repentance and obedience and to press upon us the words of Psalm 78.

 

I agree! The purpose of secular education is to give kids the knowledge they need to get into Harvard so they can get a high paying job and contribute to society. The purpose of Christian education should be to teach children to love the Lord with all their heart, soul and mind. In doing so they will will not only contribute to society, but their contributions will be of eternal value.

 

Yours is an excellent post. Very thought provoking with some excellent points. I hope that you do not feel that I have attacked or provoked. I would urge you to read the resolution, if you have not done so already. As I stated in my letter to Jack Graham, I believe the scriptural basis of the resolution is wonderful, but the conclusions and actions proposed are out of sync with the scriptures cited.

My best rebuttal of the resolution, and of your post is my own family. My boys are living proof that children can be properly educated in public schools, and can be raised to view the world through a biblical worldview. The key, as I have stated previously, is that the parents must be actively engaged in reviewing what has been taught in school through the lens of scripture. As an example, the summer before each of my boys took high school biology, we spent several weeks studying together Geisler's rebuttals of evolution and reading Johnson's take on Darwin. When school began in the fall, each of them was able to respectfully argue against evolution and articulate evidences supporting creationism. If I had not studied those very things for many years, and had not looked ahead to what my boys would learn the coming semester, they might have believed the falsehoods taught in school. Parents must stop being lazy and passive, and take responsibility for the education of their children!

My wife grew up in Christian schools, as did many of our mutual friends, and when they graduated and entered the workforce, many did not possess the strong faith required to live the Christian life in the world, and fizzled under the pressure. Regardless of where the kids are educated, parents must prepare them for life in the world. Sadly, most parents do not.

We can argue back and forth about the merits pulling Christian children out of public schools. On one side, if parents place their children in public schools and are not proactive and teach the substance of our faith at home, they will end up no different than the world. On the other side, if parents place their children in Christian schools or homeschool, and do not model a life lived for Christ, the kids will see the Christian education as irrelevant and fall away. It all rests upon the parents.

In our case, sharing their faith is a daily activity for my boys at school. It happens literally every day! Lives have been impacted and changed. Are we wrong to keep them in their current schools which are based upon the current culture's view of the world? Not if we are doing our job at home.

 

I am SBC, and I support the SBC. But this resolution is just too far out there.

First off, my wife and I have already discussed home schooling. While I think that my wife can do a great job (I work mega hours, so I'm not a lot of help), our daughter is of an age where she can make her own decissions.

Secondly, ALL, and I repeat, ALL the Christian schools in my city are totally unacceptable. All but one are Pentecostal/Charismatic, even though they say "Non-denominational" on the sign. The only one that isn't is a school for Stepford children (long dresses/no pants, no short hair on girls, no make-up, extremely strict dress code/uniforms, no shorts for boys, no short sleeves...get the picture?).

We tried one of the Christian schools here, one of the "non-denom" ones. It was awful. Our daghter came out of that year behind all the other kids in our public schools (and the public schools here in Tennessee are on the bottom of the list). So no thanks.

We still boycott Disney. We still give to the General Fund. We still give to the Association. But I think we'd have to pass on this one.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I believe that I, as the dad, determine the purpose of the education my children receive. Both of my boys (15 & 17) will graduate in the next three years from a well-respected public school district in an affluent suburb of Dallas. Ask either one of them their purpose in life and a high-paying job will not be on the list. They see and understand the shallowness and vanity of the world's goals, and neither desire that. Again, as in all of my previous posts on this subject, the parents determine the outcome by how they model a faith-filled life and proactively educate at home.

 

Trotter: I wish I could show you the letter I received from an official of the SBC, but out of respect for his privacy I will not. But suffice it to say, he does not see the resolution being in the best interest of the SBC.

 

What I find is that a number of adults today who grew up under the tyranny of communism and atheism are some of the finest Christians today.

It is not the school or church they attend but more importantly the Christ they possess.

 

You are absolutely correct! I have learned more from my friends in Romania about REAL faith, service, and discipleship than I ever learned here at home! My service there has changed my life drastically forever. It is under pressure that our faith matures, and the backlash against those who stand for Christ in Romania is far greater than we ever experience here, so they are strong. The backlash is strong within the public schools there too, yet they stand tall for Christ without yielding to fear. That can only be taught at home as parents demonstrate bold faith, regardless of where the children attend school.

 

Thank you for your response. This is a very late reply so please forgive me - I have been away and unable to post.

First, I have no doubt that you put faith in the fact that your boys are living proof that children can come out of the public schools “properly” educated and with their faith in tact. God is most gracious and merciful to His people. But, I think we are on very shakey ground if we begin to assert that ends do justify means. Can we honestly say that, biblically, ends justify means? God is just as concerned with our means and He is with our ends. Pragmatism (that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief) isn’t the way of obedience for the Christian.

This seems to be one of the main points being missed about this resolution - that in order for Christians to be faithful to what God has commanded of us concerning our children, we must be sure that the education our children receive is God-centered and not man-centered. It must be “for Him” and not “against Him”. It must be based in truth, not lies. Consider these as these things are they relate to the following disciplines and categories:

Science – (evolution or Creation?)
History – (a mere collection of man’s accomplishments, facts & dates, or God’s Providential hand moving men and nations to bring about His will)
Morality – (God’s absolutes or man’s relativism; obedience or pragmatism)
Government– (the state provides for our needs or God provides for our needs. What determines jurisdiction & authority as it concern family, church and state? Where do a citizen's civil rights come from?)

I could go on but in the interest of space, the point I’m attempting to make is that God is the beginning and end of ALL wisdom and knowledge – anything that excludes Him is therefore against Him and is a falsehood. We are Christians, to know God is to know truth – why do we find it acceptable to subject our children to a system bound up in those things which are falsehood?

Further, it seems a risky business to bank on the fact that “faithful” parents will always be able to overcome the influence of false teaching. I myself had faithful parents but my education still took a toll on my thinking (and theirs). I believed that I had a biblical worldview, but I didn’t. It wasn’t until I got involved in the civil sphere as it relates to education (when my children were just entering school) that my worldview began to be exposed. Just shortly after I became involved as an activist, we began teaching at home which started the investigation into Christian curriculum/methods. It was through that search and my own re-education that I realized just how huge the holes were in my own knowledge (like church and Christian history) as well as in my application of biblical principles to things like government, education, spheres of jurisdiction, etc. During this time I was also engulfed in researching governent education reform and acting as a citizen activist at the local, state and federal levels. That experience not only helped me see what is wrong with public schools, but through God’s grace and provision I began to understand what a Christian philosophy of education really looked like. The contrast between the two was stark and was right there before my very eyes. God knew that I not only needed to understand what was wrong, but more importantly, I needed to know what was right. It was a steep learning curve to say the least and through it all I discovered that my own public education had left me with a worldview that needed much undoing – I had not been trained to bring every thought captive to Christ. How I wish I could have spent those years learning how Christ is relevant to ALL knowledge and wisdom and that apart from Him there is no real "education". I lament over the wasted years that could have been equipping me so that, "the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2Timothy 3:17). The public education that I had "survived" (seemingly well)had done its damage and precious time was lost as a result. We often don’t see our own blind spots and don’t know what it is that we’re missing.

I believe it is evident that the people of God are suffering because we haven’t considered this carefully enough. Essentially, we have thought we could play with fire and walk away totally unscathed. But, the statistics prove otherwise. Nehemiah Institute has been giving their PEERS worldview tests to Christian children for over thirteen years now and the results ARE NOT proving the claim that the influence of public education is being alleviated by church or parental influence. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but we are not concerned about exceptions (however, as I said before, practically everyone who has their children in the public schools believes their children ARE the exception). In huge numbers, Christian children in government schools, whose worldviews are tested, are demonstrating that their thinking falls in line with that of practical humanists/socialists. Do these kids know they aren’t thinking biblically? I doubt it very much. We would be wise to heed the warnings about comparing ourselves with ourselves as 2 Corinthians 10:12 states, “For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.”

The purpose of the Peers worldview test is to identify an individual’s worldview in five areas of life: politics (civil government), economics, education, religion and social issues. The test rates the individual's views in one of four worldview categories, Biblical theism, Moderate Christian, Secular Humanism or Socialism. A free mini-test is available online at

http://www.christian-internet.com/creation/peers_test.htm

Knowledge is religious. Government schools have removed God and are God-less. But they are not godless. Their epistemology is man-centered - it deifies man. Their religious foundation is called Humanism. The point of the resolution is to call Christians to abandon the notion that "neutral" education is acceptable to God because there's really nothing neutral about it. Our epistemology claims that He is the source of all truth and anything apart from Him is a falsehood (Proverbs 1:7, Col. 2:3). Why should Christians agree to an education system which to us should appear as irrational as it is antithetical to our faith?

I remain convinced that the nature of knowledge is a religious issue and that the Scriptures (where our relationship and duty to Christ is defined)require nothing less than a conformity to the will of God revealed in them. What those Scriptures require should be the subject of this whole debate, despite our feelings of comfort, or our personal and subjective opinions which may not be governed by the Word of God. That's the point I want to clarify.

SBC leader have the unique opportunity to lead at a critical time in our nation’s history. I'm praying they will do so.

I heard late last night that both Michael Farris of HSLDA and Joe Belz of World Magazine have come out in suport of the resolution.

 

Coram Deo:

Another excellent post! Rather than quoting your message within my text, I'll refer to it in order to save space. Our backgrounds are SO similar, and I have no doubt we would be great friends if we lived in closer proximity.

First, let me remove the candy-coating from the introductory premise of your argument. When we talk about the ends justifying the means, we are really discussing sinful means bringing about a godly result. I do not mean to put words in your mouth, but I presume that is the heart of the premise. And to that I say, absolutely no, a godly result is never justfied by sinful means. But I think that to declare our methods sinful without an understanding of those methods is wrong.

Our method is a direct result of the backgrounds in which my wife and I were raised and educated. My background is much like yours. I was raised in a church-going home with good parents, and attended public schools. We were at church every moment the doors were open, yet I graduated from high school as the poster child for secular humanism and relativistic thinking (wrapped in a shiny Christian shell). My parents, as wonderful as they are, and as much as I love them, were asleep at the wheel when it came to raising me as a devoted follower of Christ. My wife was also raised in a Christian home, but attended the most legalistic of Christian schools, both primary, secondary, and on the university level. So the legalist married the humanist, both disenchanted with their faith and life. I sold computers, and she taught elementary children in the local Christian school. Before we could blink, our first child was on the way, and I realized that I needed to figure out what I believed and why I believed it. So my re-education began. I pulled my Bible off the shelf, blew off the dust, and eventually I found those same holes in my knowledge and realized my doublemindedness.

Over a period of a few years we sought to develop a method to raise well adjusted children who would grow up loving Jesus and seeking to serve Him. The first thing we did was examine where our own parents, churches and schools fell short. We determined that I had missed out on keeping God's word central to my education, and having my parents lead me according to the guidelines set forth in Deuteronomy 6. My wife's experience at church and school had always been extremely negative with regards to the Christian life, and caused her to look at most believers as hypocrites.

Our solution was to take primary responsibility for the education of our children, and to use Deuteronomy 6 as our guideline. We realized we needed to fill ourselves with God's word so that we could then constantly speak it and use it as our compass for each moment of life. I made deliberate career decisions that would allow me to be home before and after school, and with very little travel. My wife did the same. We bought curriculum from Bob Jones on a few occasions to supplement and redirect what our boys were learning at school. We used (and still do) the same contrasts between secular teaching and God's word within the various areas of study including the four you mentioned. ("See boys, how the world looks at this versus what God's word has to say?") We often receive calls from teachers asking how it is that our boys see the subjects taught in such a different light than the other students. If our boys are awake, it is a moment available for teaching them to see the world through the lens of scripture - to learn to view knowledge, which is religious as you stated, through a biblical theistic world view. Are these sinful means to a godly end? I believe the secular education they have received has served in large extent to immunize them against humanism and relativism due to proactive diligent teaching at home, because they clearly see the foolishness of humanistic scholarship. I believe we have lived up to the requirements set forth in scripture for the education of our children. Our method was neither easy nor comfortable and was governed by the word of God. Sinful? Show me how.

Given what we knew when we started this years ago, I would still make the same decision. If we had lived in a different area with different schools, and the environment in those schools had been different, we might have taken a different course of action. And you are correct that faithful parents may not be able to overcome false teaching, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that if the parents are not living boldly and faithfully for Christ, and bringing their children along with them, the children will view the faith of the parents as hypocricy and will not embrace that faith as adults. In that case it will not matter where the children go to school. Some of the greatest failures in Christian living that I have ever known attended the finest Christian schools growing up, but their parents made Christianity look fake.

Your final implied argument (again, I do not wish to put words in your mouth, but the implication is clearly there) is that you have attained a level of knowledge and understanding that allows you to see things I cannot see. There is no way to argue that. Maybe I do have blindspots on this issue, but there is an equal chance that blind spots exist on the other side of the issue. That argument is a two-edged sword.

Tell me where I went wrong. Show me the blind spot. The boys' worldviews are intact, and they both see God at the center of every field of study. And literally hundreds of children and teachers have heard God's word boldly and consistently proclaimed, resulting in changed lives. I am measuring my family against God's word, and not against ourselves or others. Show me how that is biblically wrong. Is the blind spot mine, or yours?

Please do not take offense. I mean all of this with respect and dignity (although I may be a little low on dignity!).

 

If this discussion is to continue it will have to do so under a different forum. I have committee a faux pas in that I didn't realize this was a Baptist only forum. And, I am not a Baptist but rather a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, a conservative reformed denomination. Rules are rules and I have no problem with compliance so, in order to be orderly I will refrain from posting here concerning this topic. I will post a reply to a new forum under a new topic and since this is all rather new to me, it may take some time to figure out how to do that...until then...good chatting.

 

Since we are on the "experience driven train," I've decided that just this once, I'd jump on board.

So let me begin by saying that I was not raised in a Christian home, and I attended government run schools for twelve long years. Time, space, and conscience prevent me from sharing all the damage done by that institution. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to defend it! On the contrary, if one really has a heart to reach the lost, one should be doing everything possible to dismantle the current system, with its false gospel of self-ism. I might also add that in those twelve long years in govt. schools, I was never witnessed to ONE TIME, nor were my siblings, friends or other relatives, and I believe that to be the rule, not the exception.
If you all still believe it to be the mission field you say, then why don’t you, as adults, get permission to go on the school grounds, to the classrooms and assemblies to witness with the true gospel.

Former atheist and Harvard College Professor Simon Greenleaf in writing to his colleagues minced no words, “The religion of Jesus Christ aims at nothing less than the utter overthrow of all other systems of religion of the world; denouncing them as inadequate to the wants of man, false in their foundations and dangerous in their tendency…”