What or who is predestinated?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Jun 28, 2006.

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  1. Dale-c

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    Most people of a Calvinistic leaning would see this as meaning that God has predestined us to salvation. However, those not of that persuasion do not agree.
    When I first read this I was shocked! I hadn't even know than the word predestinate was in the Bible!
    So, what does it mean then if it does not mean that certain people were predestined to salvation?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Okay, you've already gotten a post that says it only means that some have been predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now, if that doesn't mean they've been predestined to be saved, I don't know what else it could possibly mean. However, it becomes even more obvious when you finish the passage:

    whom he did predestinate

    Whom are those? Those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. Now what else did He do?

    whom he did predestinate, them [the same ones] he also called: and whom he called, them [the same ones] he also justified: and whom he justified, them [the same ones] he also glorified.

    All of the disputable verses of the Bible with "all", "whosoever" and anything else that people use to claim free-will is true cannot stand against such a clear progression.

    predestined->called->justified->glorified


     
  3. Bible-boy

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    I can tell you what it does not mean. It does not mean that some people (humans) were created for hell (the idea of what some call double predestination). If it carried that meaning (double predestination) it would contradict the Scriptures and I hope that we all agree that Scripture never contradicts itself. I say this because Matthew 25:41 clearly says that the eternal fire [of hell] was specifically prepared for the devil and his angels. Jesus never said that the eternal fire of hell was created with the intent for some humans to be sent there. Thus, God in His foreknowledge could not have prepared hell specifically for the devil and his angels and at the same time predestined some humans for it as well.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian. Coach Calvin is in a league where he coaches a team he has individually selected. Coach Arminian is in a league where he coaches a team who has individually chose to voluntarily join his team. Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players.

    Calvinists insist this passage along with Eph. 1 where predestination is also mentioned must mean that God is like "Coach Calvin" but all the passage tells us is what the coach has predetermined for his team, it says nothing about his predetermining who would and would not be on that team.

    Calvinists like Nick make arguments such as this: "whom he did predestinate, them [the same ones] he also called: and whom he called, them [the same ones] he also justified: and whom he justified, them [the same ones] he also glorified."

    The problem with this is that Paul is only listing the things God has done for those who love him. He is not even bringing up men's response. Even Calvinists insist that a man must respond in faith in order to be justified, but this verse doesn't even mention faith. Should we conclude from this that faith is not necessary? Of course not, no one does. Should we conclude from this that faith must be irresistably applied to those foreknown, predestined and called? Only if you want to infer something from silence. Simply because Paul assumes the faith response doesn't necessarily mean that such a response is not free, or is somehow irresistably applied to certain individuals to the neglect of others. You have to read that into the text. All we can certainly conclude from this passage is that God has predetermined for US, his church, to be conformed to the image of his son and the we, his church, were called, justified, sanctified and glorified.

    If we want to learn more about the response of faith we need to look at other passages, not this one.
     
  5. webdog

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    Cool analogy, skandelon, and 100% correct! Like I have said, being predestined to become conformed into Christ's image is not predestined to become believers. The verse just doesn't allow for that interpretation, as skandelon has pointed out.
     
  6. 2BHizown

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    Dont forget the clarity of the verse Acts 13:48, the verse that shocked me and was the beginning of my coming to understanding of the doctrines of grace! Marvelous day, marvelous verse:
    ~and when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Skandelon said:
    The Bible says:
    Sorry, Skan, but these players' names seem to have been written before they were even on the scene, because according to the Bible, the Book of Life was written and populated with names before the foundation of the world.

    The above verse clearly indicates predestination unto salvation, both eternal and timely. It points to the reason why those who are awed by the beast are awed at all, the reason being that their names were not written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

    The Savior Himself clearly teaches that there are such a group of people as the Elect.

     
  8. PrimePower7

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    Amen!

    And how can we argue with Scripture when it says whom He did predestinate...He did justify? My goodness, people! Let God be true and every man a liar!

    Furthermore, maybe we should read more Bible and listen to less analogies and emotional arguments. SOME HAVE SAID that God would not create someone for Hell. Perhaps, some should read Romans 9 where Paul says some vessels of wrath are "AFORETIME" fitted to destruction.

    Let God be true and every man a liar!
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Ps 69:28 -
    May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.

    Re 3:5 -
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    There must be a proper understanding of this "book of life" in order to draw hard and fast conclusions. Clearly if one is able to be blotted out of the book it is not the type of book imagined by Calvinistic dogma. Plus, I encourage you to read up on the historical references to this book of life. Start here...beginning in 32:32...

    http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkeexo32.htm
     
  10. Skandelon

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    Ok, let's talk about Romans 9, the most abused chapter in the Bible. This chapter says nothing about God creating someone for hell. First, that is a view of what some call "double predestination" which is rejected by most Calvinists such as RC Sproul, MacArthur, Piper and the like.

    Secondly, these people, namely Israelites, had continually rebelled against a God who patiently held out his hands of mercy to them (Romans 10:21; Matt. 23:37) and thus fitted themselves for destruction. God delayed in destroying them, even though they deserved it, because of he wanted to use them to show the riches of his mercy to the nations. Paul is simply showing how God used rebellious Jews to bring mercy to the Gentiles. He reserved a few Jews from Israel whose calling it was to take the message to the Gentiles (i.e. apostles), but the rest were being temporarily hardened in their rebellion (Rom 11:26) but it is clear that these who were hardened might still be saved once provoked to envy, proving that those hardened are not the non-elect reprobate of Calvinistic dogma (Rom 11:14).
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Not meaning anything about you, personally, but, double predestination is something that I find very very abhorrent.
    I do not think, or agree, until one can prove it irrefutably with Scriptures that God ever predestinated anyone to hell.
    The reprobates he left to their sins and to His declared consequences and penalties for sin.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    Thanks for the reference, Skan. I will study it in light of Scriptures and what others have written. Be back to you when I can. Cheers.
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    I, as many of you may know, am a 5 point Calvinist.

    I will address the OP as I see it.

    Predestination does not refer to the choice of who will be saved. It refers to the destiny appointed for those who are chosen. First God chooses, that is, he unconditionally sets his favor on whom he will, THEN destines them for their glorious role in eternity.

    No one should run from the word predestination. This is one word we all can agree with. Predestination and Election is often inter-changed as we talk about them. This is fine, if we make known the meaning before hand. Yet, going only by the Bible, predestination simply means destiny know beforehand. We know, as God Knows that salvations plan ends in the destiny of Heavens glory and being with God.

    Election is the choosing of the saints. Election is not of foreseen faith, but because of foreseen unbelief. Election does not apply to the unsaved, so no one is choosen to go to hell.

    The elect of God goes to Heaven. That is it ture and simple.


    In Christ..James
     
    #13 Jarthur001, Jun 28, 2006
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  14. Jarthur001

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    I would agree with most of this. One thing is wrong. That which you do not agree with is not Calvinistic dogma. Some Calvinist do hold to this, but I feel they are wrong.
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    This on the other hand I would strongly disargee with. I would be happy to go into detail of Romans 8,9 and 10 if you would like to start that tread.
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    This too is simply untrue. We just finished a 31 page tread that ended with this passage (Eph 1). If you would like to have this looked at fully, look at that tread just closed 2 days ago, or start a new one where we can address it to the max.
     
    #16 Jarthur001, Jun 28, 2006
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  17. 2BHizown

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    ...................


























































































































































    Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.
    Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?
    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
    What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?
    And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory!
    Rom 9 : 18-23

    How can these verses do anything at all but be perfectly clear? Praise His name!!
     
    #17 2BHizown, Jun 28, 2006
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  18. 2BHizown

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    Not sure how that happened, but hope it doesnt do it again!:confused:
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    I thought it was the hidden message I have looked for.... for so long. :cool:

    But then I opened it.....it said sorry.."you are not a winner"
     
  20. Skandelon

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    Okay, I'm starting a thread on Eph. 1 and another on Romans 8-11. See you there.:thumbs:
     
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