What order do you believe salvation takes?

stilllearning · Jul 14, 2008

I believe, that this is the correct order;
--------------------------------------------------
foreknowledge, (It all starts with God, knowing the decision we will make
election, (Then we are elected and predestined to be saved
predestination,
redemption, (This is a result of our faith in Christ!)
regeneration, (This is the new birth.)
justification, (Being justified before God, based upon our faith
sanctification, (Being set apart unto God, as we obey Him.)
glorification (The moment we each get our glorified bodies!)

Jarthur001 · Jul 14, 2008

stilllearning said:

I believe, that this is the correct order;
--------------------------------------------------
foreknowledge, (It all starts with God, knowing the decision we will make
election, (Then we are elected and predestined to be saved
predestination,
redemption, (This is a result of our faith in Christ!)
regeneration, (This is the new birth.)
justification, (Being justified before God, based upon our faith
sanctification, (Being set apart unto God, as we obey Him.)
glorification (The moment we each get our glorified bodies!)
Click to expand...

You left out a key point.

Creation.

Some of the above happened before creation and some after. It is key to understand that God know before God created.

I would say this..

God KNEW
God decreed
God created.
God elected and predestined

Man fell

God sent Christ for redemption of the elect
Holy Spirit brings regeneration. (faith is given to believe)
Believer believes and is justified.
Sanctification begins in the believer and ends with glorification

skypair · Jul 14, 2008

stilllearning said:

I believe, that this is the correct order;
--------------------------------------------------
foreknowledge, (It all starts with God, knowing the decision we will make
election, (Then we are elected and predestined to be saved
predestination,
redemption, (This is a result of our faith in Christ!)
regeneration, (This is the new birth.)
justification, (Being justified before God, based upon our faith
sanctification, (Being set apart unto God, as we obey Him.)
glorification (The moment we each get our glorified bodies!)
Click to expand...

I am surprised James didn't "quote" you the "Golden Chain of Salvation," Rom 8:29-30. You have it pretty much correct.

Foreknowledge of who will believe -- predestining them to sanctification in life and beyond -- then came creation/time as James points out -- then comes calling to belief -- then justification of the believer -- then glorification which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit making our bodies "terrestrially glorified."

Did you notice that "sanctification" was left out of this "chain?" We, indeed, must be sanctified while we live but that is part of being glorified as we live. It's what Jesus said of Himself (died that He might be glorified) and He said it of Lazarus before He raised him as well. It basically means our bodies glorify God to the extent that we allow Him to sanctify our lives through the Spirit.

skypair

Rippon · Jul 14, 2008

There is no such thing as earthly glorification Sp.

Thinkingstuff · Jul 14, 2008

stilllearning said:

I believe, that this is the correct order;
--------------------------------------------------
foreknowledge, (It all starts with God, knowing the decision we will make
election, (Then we are elected and predestined to be saved
predestination,
redemption, (This is a result of our faith in Christ!)
regeneration, (This is the new birth.)
justification, (Being justified before God, based upon our faith
sanctification, (Being set apart unto God, as we obey Him.)
glorification (The moment we each get our glorified bodies!)
Click to expand...

God's grace.
the moving of his Holy Spirit in our lives
our responce.

skypair · Jul 14, 2008

Rippon said:

There is no such thing as earthly glorification Sp.
Click to expand...

And your scripture is ...? John 17:22 says otherwise, bro! "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

If you ain't got the "glory," you ain't "one" with us! :laugh: Isn't that how you would interpret JESUS words?

skypair

Outsider · Jul 14, 2008

Election - Through His foreknowledge, He knew the fall of man and made a way for us.
Predstination - A future fact of all God's promises
Calling - God speaks to the hearts of all people.
Repentance - Those that believe will repent.
Regeneration - Those that believe and repent, God will born them with His Spirit.
Justification - God justifies us before Him
Sanctification - God sets us apart
Glorification - Soon.

God bless and many blessings!!!

bbas 64 · Jul 20, 2008

skypair said:

I am surprised James didn't "quote" you the "Golden Chain of Salvation," Rom 8:29-30. You have it pretty much correct.

Foreknowledge of who will believe -- predestining them to sanctification in life and beyond -- then came creation/time as James points out -- then comes calling to belief -- then justification of the believer -- then glorification which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit making our bodies "terrestrially glorified."

Did you notice that "sanctification" was left out of this "chain?" We, indeed, must be sanctified while we live but that is part of being glorified as we live. It's what Jesus said of Himself (died that He might be glorified) and He said it of Lazarus before He raised him as well. It basically means our bodies glorify God to the extent that we allow Him to sanctify our lives through the Spirit.

skypair
Click to expand...

Good Day, Skypair

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where does this passage make reference to God knowing who will believe?

God Knows
God Foreordaines
God Calls
God Justifies
God glorifies

I see nothing here about any thing man does...... man is the object of all the verbs that are atttributed to God as doing them.

In Him,

Bill

TCGreek · Jul 20, 2008

Isn't salvation experiential? Why do we go all the way back to eternity pass on this one?

jdlongmire · Jul 20, 2008

from here - a good summary

Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never seperate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone.

Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously.

This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.

Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.

Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power.

Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.
Click to expand...

skypair · Jul 20, 2008

bbas 64 said:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where does this passage make reference to God knowing who will believe?
Click to expand...

It is quite simple, really. Even Calvinists will tell you that the "foreknown" are believers. RC Sproul says that the passage wouldn't make any sense unless that were the case.

I see nothing here about any thing man does...... man is the object of all the verbs that are atttributed to God as doing them.
Click to expand...

I have "heard that song before." :laugh: They are all "active" verbs meaning that God does them, eh? So God's "foreknowing" is an act on His part, not ours. True! What is "foreknowing?" It is "knowing beforehand," "foreseeing." Let's don't "trump this up" into something it is not. God could hardly be offering salvation/rebirth to "whosoever" (John 3:16) if He already decided who would be saved.

I do appreciate your interest in this topic though.

skypair

skypair · Jul 20, 2008

jdlongmire said:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
Click to expand...

Better yet, see which one comports more with Rom 8:29-30!

You "tip" your bogus "hand" by saying "election" = "foreknowledge," jdl. :laugh: But then you just "dig your grace deeper" by adding "inward call," "conversion," and "sanctification" which are NOT even mentioned in the so called "Golden Chain!"

As to the Arminian characterization, you don't even try to follow Rom 8:29-30 and yet they DO believe it. They just interpret it differently than you do.

Basically, you got an "axe to grind," don't you?

skypair

canadyjd · Jul 20, 2008

I view the order of salvation as follows:

Salvation begins with God.

Salvation ends with God.

Everything that happens concerning salvation between the beginning and the ending is the work of God.

peace to youraying:

jdlongmire · Jul 20, 2008

skypair said:

Better yet, see which one comports more with Rom 8:29-30!

You "tip" your bogus "hand" by saying "election" = "foreknowledge," jdl. :laugh: But then you just "dig your grace deeper" by adding "inward call," "conversion," and "sanctification" which are NOT even mentioned in the so called "Golden Chain!"

As to the Arminian characterization, you don't even try to follow Rom 8:29-30 and yet they DO believe it. They just interpret it differently than you do.

Basically, you got an "axe to grind," don't you?

skypair
Click to expand...

Another mocking polemic that leads me to my standard response link to skypair.

nunatak · Jul 20, 2008

hahaha, jd, thats rich :laugh: :laugh:

Rippon · Jul 20, 2008

skypair said:

What is "foreknowing?" It is "knowing beforehand," "foreseeing." Let's don't "trump this up" into something it is not. God could hardly be offering salvation/rebirth to "whosoever" (John 3:16) if He already decided who would be saved.

God's foreknowledge is set upon His chosen ones. He has set His love on them from eternity past.Biblical foreknowledge is not merely knowing something in advance, which is a degradation of the scriptural doctrine.

You are tripping yourself up with "whosoever". In John 3:16 it means everyone who believes.There is nothing indefinite about the folks so designated.The Lord certainly has decided who shall be saved. Those who are saved are saved because He determined it."They are reborn -- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God." ( John 1:13,NLTse)
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

stilllearning · Jul 20, 2008

Hi Rippon

You know, God didn’t have to inform us at all, about His Foreknowledge.

The fact is, “whosoever”, can be saved;
It is just that God knew in advance, who was truly going to believe, and elected to save them.

I believe the reason that God clued us in, on the fact of His Foreknowledge, is because, as He was explaining “Grace” to us, He had to make it perfectly clear, that we didn’t save ourselves.

And the absolute proof, that we don’t save ourselves, is the fact that our salvation had already been arranged, by God.
--------------------------------------------------
Therefore, “God’s foreknowledge”, is a crucial part, of the Doctrine of Grace.

Rippon · Jul 21, 2008

stilllearning said:

Hi Rippon

The fact is, “whosoever”, can be saved;
It is just that God knew in advance, who was truly going to believe, and elected to save them.

Rip : Again, that's a degeneration of the biblical doctrines of foreknowledge, election etc.No one would turn to God under their own power. God doesn't wait and see who would -- no one can.Haven't you heard of Total Depravity?

The Lord elected to save those of His own choosing before the creation of the world.

And the absolute proof, that we don’t save ourselves, is the fact that our salvation had already been arranged, by God.

Rip : Since, indeed, our salvation was arranged by the Lord -- decided by Him before the foundation of the world was laid in place -- that goes against your prior claim that the Lord foresees who will believe, then elects them.
Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Rippon · Jul 21, 2008

Well, that's one down.

Rippon · Jul 21, 2008

That's two down.

What order do you believe salvation takes?

stilllearning Active Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

skypair Active Member

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Thinkingstuff Active Member

skypair Active Member

Outsider New Member

bbas 64 New Member

TCGreek New Member

jdlongmire New Member

skypair Active Member

skypair Active Member

canadyjd Well-Known Member

jdlongmire New Member

nunatak New Member

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

stilllearning Active Member

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Useful Searches

What order do you believe salvation takes?

stilllearning Active Member

Jarthur001 Active Member

skypair Active Member

Rippon Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Thinkingstuff Active Member

skypair Active Member

Outsider New Member

bbas 64 New Member

TCGreek New Member

jdlongmire New Member

skypair Active Member

skypair Active Member

canadyjd Well-Known Member

jdlongmire New Member

nunatak New Member

Rippon Well-Known Member Site Supporter

stilllearning Active Member

Rippon Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Rippon Well-Known Member
Site Supporter