What order do you believe salvation takes?

That's three down.

 

And that's four down.Whew! These multiples are annoying.

 

All it takes to be saved:

First of all it must be kept in mind that Christ died for sinners, not good men. We are all hell-bound sinners, no matter how good we are perceived to be in men's sight. We are sinners and we need to be saved. We are guilty. We cannot save ourselves. We have to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ - believe in Him as our Saviour, and God will fulfill His promise - "Thou shalt be saved".

But do not confuse this with simply believing that there is a God or that Jesus exists - because they demons do this as well - James 2:19. Put this way - you can believe a doctor is good without making him your doctor. So it's not enough to simply to believe the truth about Jesus - you are to believe on Him, which means You are to trust Him, and depend on Him in order to be saved.

We are NOT saved by good works, because we do not deserve our Salvation (due to reasons mentioned in the first paragraph). Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11, Titus 3:5 - compare with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Hebrews 9:22.

Church membership won't save you either. Nor does water baptism. Nor does leading a moral life.

To quote Dr John R. Rice - "Don't depend, then, on what you do, but on what Jesus did and promises to do for you. "

But doesn't the Bible say we must repent?

Acts 17:30, Luke 13:3-5. But the problem here is, people take the word "repentance" out of context. Dr Rice stated that they take it to mean a period of weeping and mourning over sins, or sorrow for sins, which we see in many pentecostal/charismatic churches today. The root of this belief comes from the Douay version of the Bible which doesn't state "repent", but "do penance", and this can also be seen in Finney's "mourner's bench" during his "revival" meetings, whereby people were told/taught that God would not hear their prayer, nor forgive them their sins, unless they went through a process of sorrow and mourning of their sins - this can still be seen today in the Latter Rain Revivals, and the Pentecostal churches.

We should be ashamed of our sins - but we shouldn't be mourning them.

Trust in Him and He will forgive your sins.

I also noticed someone heresaying that the process to salvation is:

Foreknowing, election, etc - but this isn't scriptural. Calvinism isn't scriptural

Here's scriptural proof:

First off, Calvin believed in infant baptism, he was an Amillennialist (Revelation 19 & 20 tell us clearly that the Bible supports a Premillennial standpoint), and the Bible stands on Believers' baptism, as opposed to infant baptism, he also believed that the Sacraments were on equal footing to the Bible, yet Revelation tells us not to add anything or take anything away from it. It is my understanding that putting man-made instruction and teaching on an equal footing with scripture is looking for trouble.

The 5 points of Calvinism and why they hinder salvation, also a scriptural refutation:

1. Total inability. Meaning that a sinner doesn't have the ability to come to Jesus Christ and trust in Him. Refutation: Although the Bible does teach total depravity, this simply means that there is nothing good in man and that he doesn't deserve salvation. Mankind is desperately wicked. The Bible doesn't teach man's inability though - see Matthew 23:27, Revelation 22:17.

2. Unconditional election. What is meant here is that while some people are "elected to heaven, others are elected to hell", and this is unconditional in both instances. So the question that comes to mind here is : If this is true, then what is the entire point of preaching the Gospel then? And what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? Unconditional sounds like pure fatalism and humanism, in fact - it is just that, as Calvinism states that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. Refutation : There is a Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election - but not in the manner Calvin meant it. God does select (elect) individuals - Abraham is a good example, but it's so that they can carry out His plan(s), He doesn't elect them for salvation. Likewise, nobody is predestined to be saved - only Believers are predestined - see John 3:36. It doesn't mean that Israel, being chosen, that all the Jews are saved - it simply means that Israel was chosen to spread the Word - God gave His Word to the Jews, God gave the Messiah to the Jews - and from there to the gentiles.

3. Limited Atonement. By this they mean that Christ died only for the Elect - i.e., those He has chosen for salvation. Refutation : This is totally unscriptural, because then at Judgment man can say to God, "You didn't want to be my Saviour". The Bible clearly states that Jesus died for ALL - see Isaiah 53:6, John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9. Although He died for all men, it doesn't mean that all are saved, because most will reject Him.

4. Irresistible Grace. This means that God forces people to be saved. In other words, compelling those to be saved who don't want to be saved. Refutation : Where's the love and obedience in this? I'd hate to force my son to love me or do anything he doesn't want to do. Irresistible grace goes against God's character. The truth is, men do reject and go against the Gospel and against God - see Proverbs 29:1, Proverbs 1:24-26.

5. Perserverance of the Saints. This in a nutshell means that those who perservere will be saved. This is salvation by works (Lordship Salvation). Refutation : The Bible teached eternal security of the born-again believer - that those who trust in Him have everlasting life, which doesn't depend on perserverance - See Jude 1, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Ephesians 4:30.

As Dr Curtis Hutson once stated:

 

Good Day, Skypair

That is all very nice, and I thank you for your reply. But using RC Sproul to answer the question I asked based on your understaning of the passage. Does very little to help me....

So we shall try again...

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Where does this passage make reference to God knowing who will believe?

In Him,

Bill

 

Goldie,

Welcome to BB! :wavey:

I believe you will find the "exchanges" here very stimulating and they do provide perspectives that, I must admit, I hadn't thought about. I've come a long way in understanding Calvinism/Reform theology and its pitfalls and I appreciate your counter-posting very much!

Hope you will stick around! :jesus:

skypair

 

Is God omniscient, bbas? Does He, therefore, also know who won't believe? Is He going to conform them to the image of His Son? NO. (BTW, the notion that God "foreknows" = like Abraham "knew" Sarah is isogetic construct without any "redeeming value," if you get my drift.).

So let's "back up the wagon" here. Where did we go astray in thinking that God only foreknew believers? Where did we limit God's foreknowledge so that He wasn't omniscient? Isn't it patently obvious that 1) the context is about believers and 2) that that is what God foreknows about those He then predestinates?

I mean, let's get serious here. If scripture didn't mean "foreknow," Paul could have said "elect" (as one of the other posters here has made him say), right? "Whom He did [elect], them He did predestinate..." "Choose" would have been another good word -- "Whom He did [choose], them He did predestinate..."

Why do you think Paul used the word "foreknow?" So that we could all argue over one of the simplest compound words in ANY dictionary??? I'm sorry but these "elect," "choose," "forelove," etal. options are not what the Spirit says to me.

skypair

 

As I pointed out to James on another thread...

... beware the leaven of "conformity" to an image of salvation vs. "conversion" to Christ for salvation. "Election" does look a lot like salvation. And we can certainly rest assured that God foreknows who are or will be His. We have ample documentation of what the redeemed "Christian life" looks like. And we all believe in the Bible "after a fashion" thus "suggesting" that the Spirit speaks to each of us. We all look, image-wise, like we are "saved" and "elect."

Ours is the spiritual equivalent of the Millennial Kingdom wherein almost everyone will be a "Messiah-abiding" citizen ourwardly. But few (apparently they'll all fit in the final Jerusalem, Rev 20:9) will have been "converted."

It is truly sad that most in this world will not take the gifts God offers to those who would be converted from works to grace --- who would, of their own volition, "enter into His rest." Instead, the paradigm is of grace, not "offered, but "bestowed." Perhaps that is the imagery many in the MK will have as well.

skypair

 

That being the case, you would do well to "conflate" some of your steps into the Rom 8:29-30 "mold.". "Election" and "predestination" are the same thing. "Jusification" and "regeneration" are the same under the NT salvation model -- ditto for "redemption" and "glorification."

You are right that we ought to fit "sanctification in there somewhere. It is, after all, what God predestines/elects us to. To Calvinists, I would guess it equates to the "call" because sanctification is accomplished by the indwelling Spirit. I would equate it with "glorification" in that we display the glory of the Spirit and of Christ in our bodies after the new birth (John 17:22).

You know, the only real problem I have with the Calvinist formulation is that one word "foreknow." I think we can all read Rom 8:29-30. I think you will simplify your meditations if you stick to that.

skypair

 

First, one has to believe there is a God.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.


God has made Himself know to all men.

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

We are given a conscience, the basic knowledge of right and wrong.

Rom 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them])



At some point in our lives, we become aware that we have broken God's laws, and thus become guilty of sin.

Rom 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.


At this point we KNOW that we have sinned against a Holy God. We can either seek God or reject Him. For those that choose to seek Him, they will find Him. For those that continue in their rejection of Him (because they loved their sin) God gives them over to a debased mind, their hearts are darkened.

Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


But for those that seek God, Christ will find them.

Luk 19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Christ will send the gospel to those who are seeking. They will hear it, and believe and be saved. Those that come to Christ have been drawn by the Father, through creation and the conscience.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


The Holy Spirit will come into them and seal them forever.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



You are now a new creature in Christ!

2Cr 5:17 Therefore, if anyone [is] in Christ, [he is] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


:godisgood:

 

EXCELLENT! My own pattern is prayer, meditation, and patience for the "precious fruit," Jas 5:7. I guess I have gone months before God answered my "inquiries" on some passages. But it has been oh, so precious to me when I received it!!! :godisgood:

Here is an interesting nexus between Calvinist's definition of saving faith and the free will biblical view. They say (probably rightly) that "faith" and "belief" are the same. But how do they interpret then what James says here? "Belief" in itself obviously isn't enough -- the "devils also believe and tremble," Jas 2:19!! Is it not clear then that unless we do something with the belief we say we have that we are still as lost as "devils!?"

Likewise here. This was obviously not the first instance of his faith/belief. Heb 11:8 also says "By faith Abraham, when he was called ... obeyed and went out..." It wasn't just that Abraham believed God but it was also that he responded to God's offer!

No, sir. I admire that you want to take the right path but I will tell you, this attitude/opinion is a "dead end." There is no "faith" without human "activity." To say such is to denigrate Enoch's faith in "pleasing God," Noah's faith in building the ark, etc. These men weren't justified by listening to and believing what God said but by DOING what He said.

Same with our salvation. Some think that the "kingdom" is handed to them on the proverbial "silver platter." Everything they do is righteous (LS) according to their faith. It may be "righteous" works that they do but it is not built on the foundation of Christ because they possibly never "chose" Him.

skypair

 

BRAVO, Amy!!!

You have EXACTLY offered the "everlasting gospel!!" You ARE an "angel," Rev 14:6! And perhaps this verse really is you and all of us believers "preaching" that gospel from heaven to the earthly inhabitants of the tribulation!!! I hope so.

You know -- it amazes me that you knew this all along and kinda questioned yourself for this little while. Welcome back to reality!!

skypair

 

Good Day, SP

Yes, not sure why this is germaine. You said God forknew who would believe in Rom 8:29. Not sure where you get that from or how this question is germaine to your assertion.

You have logicly infered this "therefore", but you have not showed from the passage that he foreknew who would believe.

Do you plan on dealing with the text as written???

More like how Mary knew Joesph, but that is futher down the line...

You have to show that in Rom 8 God forknew who would belive from the text please.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Not sure what you are getting at never asserted "foreknew" was not the intention of the text, I am not arguing over the word nor it's use how how it is defined, choose is not the word here so your point is mute. Not sure what the "spirit" is saying to you, but that is not important at this point. Would you deal with the text says.

Where does it say God foreknew who would believe??

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


You are the one asserting such a reading of the text, so back it up...

What does the text say that God foreknew?

In Him,

Bill

 

Good Day, Goldie

Not sure where you got your version of what you call calvinism.

I would recommend reading a Baptist who affims the doctrines of Grace. Much of what you wrote here is incorrect, I guess I could ask you for your sources. My dealing with people who say this kind of stuff has proven that they can not provide sources from any one who belives such dribble, it just gets thrown out there.

Recommend CH Spurgeons - http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

In Him,

Bill

 

Good Day, Amy

If as you prepose Christ finds those who seek, (they must ssek to be found by Christ) then he finds nobody...

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


No one seeks, so Christ finds none. :tear:

The gospel goes no where :tear:

There is no good news, there is no plan nor purpose....

You have to seek;

Seeing none do the eternal plans of God are worthless and there is nothing he can do about it. He is waiting for seekers and there are none "checkmate"
:BangHead:

In Him,

Bill

 

Romans 3:11 is quite true. No one on his own seeks God. God must draw him.

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Notice that God has shown it to them. God did the revealing of Himself. God is the initiator.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 which gives us the decription of the wickedness and depravity of man.
But God has not left us in this lost and hopeless state. He draws, He convicts, He reveals Himself in nature and the conscience, so that NNE has an excuse for rejecting Him.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.'* Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


Mat 13:12 "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

Those that reject God will have what understanding they do possess, taken away from them. But those that receive Him will be given more understanding.

 

What's the old saying? "None so blind as he that will not see."

I just "dealt with the text" but apparently the working of your mind -- your preconceptions -- will not allow you to 1) admit that foreknow is a simple word meaning see beforehand and 2) that the entire passage is about believers and so answers your inquiry as to who He foreknew.

I am sorry I could not put it in Calvinist terms but scripture and the Spirit don't allow me the liberty of false teaching.

skypair

 

Lordship's Out-of-Ordo Salutis

1) foreknowledge, 2) election, 3) calling, 4) repentance, 5) faith, 6) regeneration, 7) conversion, 8) justification, 9) sanctification, 10) preservation, 11) glorification.

It is a mistake to separate regeneration and faith in a temporal way, because they are simultaneous. Calvinism's extra-biblical view that regeneration precedes and occurs apart from personal faith in Christ fails the test of Scripture. One important matter, however, should be recognized. In 1 Thess. 1:9 Paul suggests faith precedes repentance. In Acts he puts repentance before faith (Acts 20:21). Repentance and faith occur so closely and/or at the same instant that one must not attempt to separate them.

An ordo salutis (order of salvation) that is slanted by the circle logic of 5 point Calvinistic presuppositions contributes to the errors of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel.

I demonstrate this in Lordship's (Out-of-Order) Salvation.


LM