What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    If that is true, then why does the OT always say that he came upon and left those doing certain tasks for God, and that Jeremiah foretold a time when messiah came, in order to have Him come to dwell in them?

    Why did Jesus indicate that He COULD NOT come in the New Covenant fashion until His death and resurrection and ascension to the Father?
     
  2. Marooncat79

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    Then how were OT saints saved without the HS?

    The ebbing and flowing of the HS in the OT sometimes dealt with a specific service to God.

    The "coming" of the HS in the NT is best described by John Piper by contrasting the Old Covenant indwelling as a small stream while in the NT, the indwelling is an overflowing river
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    IF the believers under the Old Covenant had the Holy spirit just as we do now under the new, why did God prophecy that there would be a new relationship with house of Isreal under the coming Messiah, as at that time God would place his Spirit in and not just upon them?
     
  4. JamesL

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    Biggest problem with your answer is that John Piper never wrote any scripture, which is what the OP asked for

    Where does SCRIPTURE suggest, not where did John Piper employ vain philosophy
     
  5. Deacon

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  6. kyredneck

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    For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57

    I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162

    But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1:2

    16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. GIMEL.
    18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law. Ps 119

    Ain't no way the natural man void of the Spirit could derive that sort of pleasure from those incomplete writings (or even in the Bible we have today for that matter), the Spirit had to be the source of the joy and delight and illumination.

    I think some folks confuse the 'clothing with power from on high' given to the infant Church with indwelling.
     
  7. JamesL

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    I'm curious, do you see a specific scripture saying this?

    Either explicitly or implicitly?
     
  8. HankD

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    Maybe this has already been pointed out but how about turning this around, - are there any NT passages suggesting that OT saints were born again?

    Galatians 4
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


    HankD
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    I think Isa 57:15 implies it. Also consider the invert:

    Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2:24

    Why wouldn't that be just as true yesterday as it is today?
     
  10. Van

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    If Calvinism is true, then the OT saints could not obtain approval through faith unless they had been regenerated, born anew, altered to overcome their total spiritual inability. So the argument in favor of indwelling of the OT saints is an agenda driven argument.

    Marooncat79 asked, "Then how were OT saints saved without the HS?"

    According to scripture those believing in God were taken to "Abraham's bosom" when they died. They did not immediately enter heaven, because Jesus says no one ascended into heaven. After, Jesus died on the cross, Jesus led captive the "captives" i.e. saints in Abraham's bosom to heaven. Thus they had to wait, until Christ died as the Lamb of God, before they could be made perfect, faultless, and enter heaven.
     
  11. Van

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    Hi HankD, you raised a very good point with Galatians 4:28-29.

    Here is how the NASB95 renders the passage:
    Note that the second "who was born" was added by the translators and is not part of the inspired text. Thus the verse can be understood to say those who were born according to the flesh (i.e. all fallen folks) persecuted Isaac who was "according to the Spirit." Isaac was a believer in God and a child of the promise, but had not yet been born anew under the provision of the New Covenant, he too had to wait in Abraham's bosom.
     
    #11 Van, Jan 9, 2015
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  12. Jedi Knight

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    1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. He dwelt in them.
     
  13. Van

    Van
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    The fact that the Holy Spirit came upon and influenced OT Saints, including being "in" them to inspire them is not at issue. The issue is "were the OT saints indwelt (sealed in Christ) before Christ died? And the answer is no.
     
  14. Jedi Knight

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    Scripture says they were so I feel safe. ;) The scriptural answer is Yes!
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Besides all the explicit statements concerning specific individuals that the Spirit was "in" (all the prophets and Caleb a non-prophet). Besides the pre-Pentecost command (Jn. 3:3) there is this statement given to Ezekiel, that is worthless, unless he understood its meaning (unlike Nicodemus):

    Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel. – Ezek. 44:9

    Ezekiel did not ask what do you mean? He understood what God was saying to him. All the Old Testament people of God understood the necessity to have a heart circumcised or transformed by God.

    1. Circumcise the heart – Deut. 30:6 (compare to Col. 2:11)
    2. Give you a new heart – Deut. 29:4; Ezek. 36:26
    3. Quicken – Psa. 80:18
    4. another heart – 1 Sam. 10:9
    5. The clean of heart – Psa. 73:1
    6. The upright in heart – Psa. 7:10; 11:2; 36:10; 97:11
    7. The Upright – Psa. 112:4
    8. The pure in heart – Prov. 15:26
    9. The uncircumcised in heart – Ezek. 44:7,9
    10. The Spirit was “in” Old Testament saints – Gen. 41:38; Numb.
    27:18

    When the terms “clean of heart…..upright in heart…. upright and pure in heart” are accompanied by the definite article (“the”) it refers to those born again believers as a class of people distinguished from others.
     
  16. Deacon

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    Suffering Job's statement as he lay in deep sickness exemplifies the temporary nature of God's indwelling Spirit among a select group of saints in OT times.

    "For as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nose, my lips surely will not speak falseness, and my tongue surely will not utter deceit.” (Job 27:3–4, LEB)

    ...and then he sneezed :eek:


    This idea is probably best expounded by Jesus himself as he spoke to Nicodemus declaring, "you must be born again" prior to his crucifixion.

    But I still wonder if a circumcised heart and the new birth accompanied by the permanent indwelling Spirit of God is something the OT saints looked at but never truly tasted (Hebrews 11:13-16ff)

    Joel speaks of a time when the Spirit would be poured out in greater fullness to all peoples.

    “And it will happen afterward thus: I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your elders will dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.” (Joel 2:28, LEB)

    Rob
     
    #16 Deacon, Jan 9, 2015
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  17. Jedi Knight

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    I do believe also that believers can be anointed as the above verse says and in the new testament too. Jesus had the Spirit rest upon him as did at Pentecost when the Spirit sat upon them for service.....service always the reason for that special extra if you will. Saints of all generations were born again...filled with the spirit and anointed.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


    It is a common case of ellipsis which the KJV noted and correctly translated.

    Second, your interpretation provides only a self-contradiction as according to your view the words "born after the flesh" is made to be a worthless statement that furnishes absolute no contrast between "then" and "now" as your theory has everyone then "born after the flesh" and therefore NO CONTRAST at all in regard to birth. However, the words "after the Spirit" have no meaning unless they are the contrast to "born after the flesh." So your theory empties these verses of the very contrast being made.

    However, Paul places all human beings into one of two possible conditions (1) those "in the flesh" and those (2) "in the Spirit" and those "in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD" - Rom. 8:8-9. Pentecost did not change the fundemental fallen nature of man as Paul plainly states that those "born after the flesh" prior to Pentecost were persecutors of persons who were not to be classified as "born after the flesh" and the only possible contrast is with the words "born after the flesh" and thus "born after the Spirit" as the KJV translators correctly understood must be the intent as that is the only possible contrast to "born after the flesh." Otherwise, all were equally "born after the flesh" and so that interpretation could not make any contrast "then" or "now."
     
  19. kyredneck

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    That changes nothing:

    26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
    27 for it hath been written, `Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many are the children of the desolate -- more than of her having the husband.`
    28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise,
    29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now; Gal 4 YLT

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
    7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

    Every child of promise that ever was, OT or NT, is born of the Spirit from the Jerusalem above, circumcised in heart, Jews inwardly, Israelites indeed.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Jan 10, 2015
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  20. kyredneck

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    Command? It's a statement of fact, not a command. A mystery from of old that had always been.

    It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow... thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

    who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1:13 YLT

    The birth from above is according to His will, not ours.
     
    #20 kyredneck, Jan 10, 2015
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