Featured What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

The issue is not the fact but the timing. Were the OT Saints born anew before Christ died? And the answer is no. Your view has the OT Saints being born anew yet somehow inexplicably not made perfect. You have the OT Saints being sealed in Christ before Christ died on the cross, yet unable to enter heaven.

 

God told the OT Prophets(example: See Ezekiel--Daniel, etc) that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was ------ some time off in the future --- the OT Prophets preached that truth to the OT Saints who received that truth by faith----believing by faith with all their fiber and being that it had already happened in their day----although the reality of the truth would not be manifested until Pentecost!! The Spirit of God dwelt in them---by FAITH!!

 

It's anothen:

from above, from a higher place
of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
anew, over again

It always has the meaning 'above' when used by John:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

As is the case with James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3


King James Word Usage - Total: 13
from above 5, top 3, again 2, from the first 1, from the beginning 1, not translated 1
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/anothen.html

My view? I quote the scripture.

What does that mean to you? (and it's sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise) And how do you know that Abraham was not 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise' at Gen 15:6?

 

You are correct, my mistake. Poor choice of words on my part.

 

Your view is inconsistent and contradictory to the plain facts of scripture. First, it is inconsistent. If Christ's death was actually necessary for new birth, then so would all other aspects of salvation such as justification, sanctification and fruit of the Spirit but yet these were undeniably obtained by all Pre-Pentecost saints.

However, nothing is clearer than the fact that Abraham is the EXAMPLE for all who are of faith regardless of when they lived before or after Moses or before or after the cross, or before or after Pentecost.

Are you now going to deny that justification was obtained or remission of sins was obtained by Pre-cross saints when scriptures teach the very opposite of your denial - Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:6-11???????

 

It is utterly amazing that there are people on this forum that would deny regeneration prior to Christ. It shows they do not even understand the fundementals of salvation. The most fundemental fact of salvation is the need of an inward moral change of nature due to the fall of man.

It is utterly amazing that some believe our current fallen nature is different than Adam's fallen nature or that there is some other way to deal with it than by new birth. New birth is the recreation of the moral "image" of God lost in the fall - Eph. 4:24, Col. 3:10 - and if it was not lost it would not have to be CREATED by God a new - 2 Cor. 5:17. The ignorance of essential salvation is utterly amazing!

 

And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? Lu 24:32

Lol, iluvit. Another of the many bennies of our gospel salvation.

 

Well OK, then if as you have assumed that Isaac was not yet "born again" (no matter what else he was or wasn't ) then he was merely born according to the flesh and Paul's metaphor of spiritual birth vs flesh birth which is carried through out the passage falls apart.

Also, Jesus "marveled" at Nicodemus as He expected him to know of the Born Again experience yet did not.

John 3
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus speaks to Nicodemus directly in the present tense (see above) and expected him as a master of Israel to understand the "born again" experience.

HankD

 

This passage was referring to themselves being indwelt by the spirit of Christ. Yes they were looking to the promose but the spirit IN THEM gave them this illumination. John the Baptist was filled with the spirit in the womb. Remember if any man have not the spirit of Christ he is not his....Old or New Testament.

 

I was suprised as well and was treated with a condescending attitude over the subject.

 

They inquired into what time or what circumstances the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating when He testified in advance to the messianic sufferings and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:11 Who was leading and illuminating and indicating in their life in the OT? Who is the "within them" here in 1 Peter? CSI this out.

 

Again we have a scenario of circumstance where eternality (or timelessness) conflicts with the involvement of the incomplete time continuum as the heavenly revelation unfolds or is unveiled within that continuum.

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

So, yes the OT saints were born again because of the word of God which lives and abides forever (from even before the foundation of the world).
Those evidences however awaiting full expression (infilling, fruit/gifts of the Spirit) until Today.

So, there may even have been some restraints put upon the OT manifestation of its earthly public evidences as verse 20 above seems to indicate.

That is, it's manifestation was given to us the children of the blood Covenant (post Pentecost) until that blood was/is unveiled and presently glorified in the fulness of time.

HankD

 

The passage above refers only to the coming of Christ and His work of redemption, not to the benefits of it. The benefits of redemption were applied EQUALLY then as now because the benefits were according to the "the blood of the everlasting covenant." It is inconsistent to argue that the cross had to occur first before any benefits of the cross could be applied. If that were the case then none could be justified prior to the Cross - meaning none could have sins actually remitted or righteousness imputed because there was no actually shedding of blood but both Abraham and David are clear examples of remission of sins and having obtained imputed righteousness (Rom. 4:5-11; Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:1) or justification. Sanctification could not be applied then if that were true and yet they "walked" in obedience to the Word and walked "by faith" and manifested the fruit of the Spirit (Heb. 11). They simply could not obtain the FINAL benefits "without us" because it is not until the resurrection when we along with them shall be made "perfect" (Heb. 11:39-40).

God actually applied the benefits to them based upon the promise that Christ would come and justify God's application of those benefits.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Good stuff and Romans 4 really explains it well. Funny thing I had this topic going before and the thread was closed down.

 

I did not iterate what those restraints might be but certainly there were some. For example there were no local churches pre-pentacost (or at least pre-incarnation) for those who were regenerated prior to His appearance.

Jesus said "I will build my church". So my presumption would be that those gifts of the Holy Spirit given to individuals within the "local church" (yet to come) would not have been given.

Unless perhaps you give credence to a pre-pentacost church which some indicate as existing (which I do not) because of the passage in Acts:

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Here ekklesia is translated church rather than using the simple secular meaning of ekklesia as "assembly" (as in Acts 19:32).

HankD

 

There was no congregation of Christ before his incarnation but there certainly was a congregation of Christ from John 1:35 onward at Jerusalem. Acts 1:21-22 demands there was a regularly traveling assembly with Christ "from the baptism of John" wherein they went "in and out" among them. Moreover, Matthew 18:15-30 presupposes the existence of the church prior to Pentecost. In addition, the apostles were the first "set in the church" (1 Cor. 12:28) and that was long before Pentecost (Mt. 3:12-15; Lk. 6:12-15) and Acts 1:12-22 is proof it had already been set in the church prior to Pentecost, as one office had already been vacated and needed filling. Matthew 16:18 can better be translated as "I will build up" my church. Acts 1:21-22 defines its point of origin. Acts 2 clearly and unambigously states they were already assembling in Acts 2:1 and those saved were "ADDED UNTO THEM" not that the church was created out of them.

 

Yes but you seem to imply that pentacost was the "church birthday" by the wording of the O/P and following although I personally wouldn't call it the "birthday", perhaps the "official opening day".

I'm not convinced just because there are mentions or implications of the church pre-pentacost (but do not accept a pre-incarnation extension).

The collective Pauline epistles containing the church charter.

Also your Matthew 16:18 "build up" is a stretch IMO.

Which is not the primary meaning in any of the lexicons I have checked and in fact only UBS gives the possibility but no examples of NT era use of "build up". Maybe I'll check my Kittels for oikodomeo.

But I do defend regeneration of the OT saints.

HankD

 

Don't know.

Sealing and indwelling are NT terms and seem to me to belong to an ecclesiastic venue since they are (or so it seems) a Pauline revelation given to the apostle.

HankD