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Featured What OT passages suggest that ALL OT believrs had the Holy Spirit JUST as we have Him

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in flesh" to enter God's House, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in flesh" to enter.

    They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in heart" to enter God's house, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in heart" to enter.

    To check the circumcision of either is an intimate action. To check if someone is circumcised in flesh demands intimate revelation. To check if someone is circumcised in heart demands intimate revelation by profession and fruit inspection.

    All prophets preached the gospel of Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Isa. 53) and therefore all men could be questioned about their profession of faith in that gospel.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi HankD, you need to provide scripture where it says OT Saints were born anew.
    Where in Job does it say any OT Saint was perfect? Nowhere.
    Now you deny that born anew believers are made perfect in Christ!! Hebrews 12:22-24
    Born anew believers are made perfect, i.e. faultless, flawless, with regard to any burden of sin. But we still need to grow in knowledge of the Truth, and become more Christ-like.
    There is a difference between being "righteous" and being "perfectly righteous" Only by the blood of Christ are we made holy and blameless and perfect. Lot as all OT Saints had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

    To return to the obvious:
    1) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints went to the third heaven when they died. NT Saints go to the third heaven, for to be absence from the body is to be present with the Lord.
    2) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were regenerated, born anew, united with Christ, made perfect, etc. They had to wait to be made perfect until after Christ died.
    3) No where in scripture does it say the OT Saints were indwelt, sealed in Christ forever. Christ did not sent the Helper until about 50 days after His death and about 10 days after His ascension.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Van and others that hold his view does not believe that peace, joy, faith, longsuffering, patience, etc. are FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT because all the Old Testament saints where characterized by these very same fruit things.

    One cannot have these fruit without having the Spirit as they are "fruit OF the Spirit" or fruit that is produced by the Spirit, just as one cannot have apples without the apple tree as they are fruit produced by the apple tree. Where there is no apple tree there are no apples and where there is no indwelling Spirit there is internal production of these character fruit.

    Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


    To "walk IN THE SPIRIT" is to manifest this character fruit and that is what it means to "walk" with God. The Old Testment saints "walked" in all these character fruits of the new inward man as the flesh cannot produce the fruit "OF THE SPIRIT."

    Isaiah said there is no peace for the wicked but the righteous have inward peace - the fruit of the indwelling Spirit as the flesh cannot produce it.

    David had the JOY of the Lord but the wicked have no such joy, because it is a fruit that the flesh cannot produce - it is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit.

    The Saints walked by FAITH (Heb. 11) but the wicked do no walk by faith and cannot because "faith" is the fruit of the Spirit and the flesh cannot produce the fruit OF THE SPIRIT.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
    24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
    25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


    1. The Lord is CONTINUALLY with David

    2. "Thou shall guide me with thy counsel" is elsewhere described by David to be ON EARTH - Ps 48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

    3. So "afterwards" means after death

    4. After death he is received "INTO GLORY" - Glory is elsewhere defined by David to be in the THIRD HEAVEN where God's throne dwells above the created "heavens" -


    Psa. 8:1O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

    Isa 63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?



    4. David in the this very context defines "glory" to be "in heaven" where God dwells - the third heaven.

    5. David is explicitly stating that the Lord will be with him CONTINUALLY on earth and after death he will be received into heaven where God's glory abides above the heavens.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Talk about yet another outrageous mischaracterization, I believe in the Word of God, every word which includes Galatians 5:22.

    The issue is not that the Holy Spirit did not come upon OT Saints, allowing them to walk in the Spirit. The issue is they were not born anew, united with Christ, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The Spirit coming "upon" a person refers to POWER and GIFTING in both Testaments. The coming of the Spirit "upon" a person NEVER is described by fruit characteristics but with POWER or GIFTS for accomplishing a calling or task.

    The Fruit of the Spirit has to do with the regenerated character or "inward man" created "in righteouness and true holiness" being "put on" in the outward man.



    The "seal" IS THE SPIRIT - 2 Cor 1:21-22
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Saints went to the third heaven after death prior to the cross - see above evidence.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in flesh" to enter God's House, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in flesh" to enter.

    They are being held responsible for allowing the "uncircumcised in heart" to enter God's house, which means they should only allow the "circumcised in heart" to enter.

    To check the circumcision of either is an intimate action. To check if someone is circumcised in flesh demands intimate revelation. To check if someone is circumcised in heart demands intimate revelation by profession and fruit inspection.

    All prophets preached the gospel of Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; Isa. 53) and therefore all men could be questioned about their profession of faith in that gospel.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


    HankD
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    it's called positional perfection.

    Somehow I feel that you knew what I meant. Are you perfectly sinless Van?

    There was no revelation to the OT believers that there was a third heaven.
    The Hebrew for "heaven" is HaShamayim which is dual (two), the third heaven is a NT revelation.
    You still need to give your rebuttal to the fact that Jesus expected Nicodemus (an Israelite) to know what the new birth was all about and that there were those already around who were born of the Spirit.

    John 3
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    2 Chronicles 15:17 But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

    Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

    HankD
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Three assertions, all mistaken, false and erroneous.

    If a person walks in the Spirit, they exhibit godliness, in both the Old and New Testament.

    We are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, who indwells us forever. This did not happen to the OT Saints until after Christ died.

    When an OT Saint walked in the Spirit, he or she would exhibit the "fruit of the Spirit" characteristics, i.e. joy, love, kindness, etc. This in no way indicates they were regenerated, made perfect, united with Christ, made alive, born anew, etc. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died to receive these blessings.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the difference between my "assertions" and your "assertions" is that I have backed up mine by explicit clear Biblical texts whereas you provide NOTHING in this response but your "assertions" which are meaningless because they are based upon NOTHING but your opinion.

    1. I said the Holy Spirit IS the seal and gave textual based evidence - 2 Cor. 1:21-22

    2. I said the Spirit coming "upon" is both a Old and New Testament act of the Spirit (Acts 8:14; etc.).

    3. I said that the Spirit coming "upon" refers to EMPOWERING and EQUIPPING to fulfill a role or task in BOTH TESTAMENTS - Acts 8:14-17;

    4. I gave indisputable evidence of pre-cross regeneration (Ezek. 44:7; Jn. 3:3-11) and the post I gave five explicit textual based reasons for this referring to regeneration in Ezek. 44:7 you have NEVER responded to.

    In other words, Van, you PROVIDE nothing but hot air EMPTY of substance but FULL of bias, opinion and your own agenda.
     
  13. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    You can lead some to the truth but cannot make them think.:type:
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    It seems personal attacks, the use of fallacy, are all the opponents have to offer.

    Here is what I said:
    Does this dispute that the Holy Spirit seals us in Christ as a pledge? Nope.

    Indwelling, being sealed in Christ forever with the Holy Spirit is the issue, and the OT Saints were not sealed in Christ until Christ died.

    No evidence was presented for pre-cross regeneration!!! Knowing that one must be born anew from OT scripture does not equate with being born anew!! Good Grief.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi HankD, I see I was mistaken, in error, and just wrong in my assertion. Sorry about that!

    The word translated perfect is also translated (in NASB) as blameless, and so it would seem to indicate Job was sinless. But I do not think that would be correct. In order to be "made perfect" one must be washed with the blood of Jesus. Now if you hold the view that Job was without blemish, let me know. My view is he also had to wait to be made perfect with all the other OT Saints.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I gave a rebuttal to the idea Jesus expected Nick to know you have to be born anew. That is not the issue. The issue is were any OT Saints born anew before Christ died! And the answer is no.

    In John 3:8, it does not say anyone had been born of the Spirit, it gives characteristics for those born of the Spirit.

    HankD, you are playing games with your refusal to define heaven as the abode of God, where Jesus is at this very moment! The OT Saints did not go there, they went instead to Abraham's bosom. If they had been made perfect, born anew, regenerated, they, like NT Saints would have gone directly to be present with Jesus in heaven.

    My answer for Asa is the same as for Job, they were upright men of integrity, but were not sinless, and therefore needed to be "made perfect" by the blood of Christ. Thus Asa too had to wait in Abraham's bosom.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, it is like talking to a parrot, just repeats the same nonsense without any evidence whatsoever, while completely ignoring and then denying all the detailed evidence placed squarely in front of his nose. - hopeless!
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    That seems unlikey Van as the verbs are present tense (wind blows) and the noun is a perfect participle (very one that is born of the Spirit).

    a perfect participle after a present tense verb usually means something that has been happening all along.

    This is how Young's literal translation renders this passage:

    John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    ...
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    Look above to see where Jesus said people went having been born again - The kingdom of God (Abraham's bosom is part of the kingdom of God).

    Again HaShamayim is the dual heaven and IMO the third heaven is the eternal dwelling place of God where no created being could go until Jesus prepared it for them.

    Van we were made positionally perfect when were saved. Yet we still sin, our goal is to mortify the flesh until we are "perfect" (mature) in Christ, we won't know our positional perfection until we leave this flesh behind.

    Van How could Enoch be pleasing to God and taken if he were still in the flesh with an unclean heart?

    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    HankD
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Van thinks that merely asserting that the above evidence is wrong makes it wrong but the above evidence has never yet been answered by anyone.
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again more detailed evidence that no one on this forum has addressed except by merely asserting it is wrong. However, that is the only thing ignorance can do - assert itself - period.
     
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