What Promise did they not receive but looked for? - Heb. 11:39-40

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Now we have posters on this forum that want to tell us their opinions which are not formulated from the previous context of this text but from a patch work of texts and interpretations gathered from hither and thither.

    Does the immediate context define the "promise" and what it was that they looked for but never received? I believe the context spells it out clearly:

    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


    He already was in the "land of promise" but what he looked for in that land of promise was "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." He never found it in the "land of promise" even though he looked for it. The only "land of promise" where "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" is not found in this world, but in a new world to come when it comes down from heaven UPON EARTH - a new earth.

    We have not received this promise either. When will we receive this promise? Only after we have been made "perfect" in spirit, soul and body as that is the only kind of person who will obtain this promise and enter that land of promise. We are both waiting. We are waiting on earth while they are waiting in heaven but neither of us have obtained "the same promise." It is yet future.

    This can't refer to going to heaven as we have not yet gone to heaven and they cannot partake of the promise without us or so says the text.

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    This cannot refer to the present heaven because the writer says they will not obtain this promise "without us" and we are still on earth and so was the writer when he penned these words. They looked for a city made by God in the promised land where they wandered and did not find it and so believed it had to be in the future.

    Note that even "NOW" they are (present tense verbs) desiring this better country with this city (v. 16). And where are they "NOW" when the writer penned these words? They were in the present heaven but still looking for this promise to be fulfilled. Where are we "now"? We are "now" on earth and the writer was on earth when penning these words, but they will not obtain this promise "without us" and so this must refer to the coming new heaven and earth when a city comes down from heaven upon a new earth - a new promised land.

    When does that occur? Only after we have been made "perfect" spirit, soul and body as that is the only people who obtain this promise and they have not obtained this promise and we have not obtained this promise and won't obtain this promise until we obtain it together.

    This text in context cannot be used to prove that they were without salvation or could not go to heaven or were without the Holy Spirit as this text has nothing to do with salvation on this earth or in the present heaven but in the future land of promise where a city can be found whose maker and builder is God - Rev. 21-22:3.
     
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  2. The Biblicist

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    Why are you attempting to derail this thread with questions that have nothing to do with the stated subject of this thread? This text is not about HOW we are glorified but it is about why this text cannot be used as a proof text against Old Testament saints being as saved as we are. Please have the Christian courtesy to start your own thread if this is what you wish to talk about. Since, I have known you, you are constantly bringing up the very same verses and very same issue in threads that have nothing to do with your agenda.
     
  3. TCassidy

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    God made Adam:

    Able not to sin.

    Adam sinned and he (and we, his decendents) became:

    Not able not to sin.

    Adam was redeemed and became

    Able not to sin.

    And someday in glory we will be

    Not able to sin.
     
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  4. percho

    percho
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    My apology. I deleted my post hope you can see the reason I made my post. Thanks anyway.
     
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  5. The Biblicist

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    Thank you Percho. Your response makes me feel a lot better about you. If you start a thread on the subject I will chime in and give you my 2 cents.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    CHS;
    Steven Cole;
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    from preceptaustin;
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Telioo is used 19 times of 24 total NT uses in Hebrews, often in the sense of to make perfect or fully cleanse from sin in contrast to ceremonial (Levitical) cleansing. The writer is emphasizing the importance of perfection... (which should cause any Jew who is contemplating the worth of Christ and the New Covenant to realize his utter hopelessness to every attain perfection under the Old Covenant).

    Hebrews 2:10 (note) For it was fitting for Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings (What sufferings? Certainly one would consider His temptation by Satan in the barren wilderness [see Mt 4:1-11, Lu 4:1ff, Mk 1:12, 13] and Gethsemane [Mt 26:36,44, Lu 22:39,44][in agony He was praying very fervently]). (Comment: This does not imply any moral imperfection in the Lord Jesus, but speaks of the consummation of the human experience of suffering the death of the Cross, through which He must pass if He is to become the Author or Captain of our salvation.)

    Hebrews 5:9 (note) And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

    Hebrews 7:19 (note) (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. (Comment: This means to carry through completely, to make complete, to finish, bring to an end. The old covenant could bring nothing to conclusion. The Mosaic economy could reveal sin but it could never remove sin, and so it had to be removed. It gave no security. It gave no peace. A man never had a clean conscience.)

    Hebrews 7:28 (note) For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

    Hebrews 9:9 (note) which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,

    Hebrews 10:1 (note) For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. (Contrast with Jesus in Hebrews 5:9 above. The idea in Hebrews 10:1 is that the ceremonial law could not actually save the believer. Its work was always short of completeness.)

    Hebrews 10:14 (note) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (Comment: Wuest writes "Here, the completeness of the state of salvation of the believer is in view. Everything essential to the salvation of the individual is included in the gift of salvation which the sinner receives by faith in Messiah’s sacrifice. The words “for ever” here are to be construed with “perfected.” It is a permanent state of completeness in salvation to which reference is made. The words “them that are sanctified” are descriptive of the believer. He is one set apart for God) (ibid)

    Hebrews 11:40 (note) because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

    Hebrews 12:23 (note) (But you have come...) 23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

    In sum the fundamental idea of telioo is the bringing of a person or thing to the goal fixed by God.

    It is interesting and doubtless no mere coincidence that in the Septuagint (LXX) teleioo is translated numerous times as consecrated or consecration, especially speaking of consecration of the priests (cf Jesus our "great High Priest") (Ex 29:9, 29, 33, 35 Lv 4:5; 8:33; 16:32; 21:10; Nu 3:3). The LXX translators gave the verb teleioo a special sense of consecration to priestly service and this official concept stands behind the writer's use in this passage in Hebrews 5:9 (note). It signifies that Jesus has been fully equipped to come before God in priestly action.

    God has provided this something better for us, that is for those under the New Covenant, which is why apart from us they should not be made perfect. That is, not until our time, the time of Christianity, could their salvation be completed, made perfect. Until Jesus’ atoning work on the cross was accomplished, no salvation was complete, no matter how great the faith a believer may have had. Their salvation was based on what Christ would do; ours is based on what Christ has done. Their faith looked forward to promise; ours looks back to historical fact.

    Yet, though their salvation was not completed in their lifetimes, these were not second-rate believers. They were believers of the highest order. They courageously struggled, suffered, and counted on salvation. They believed all of God’s Word that they had, which is what counts with Him. How much less faith do we often have, in spite of our much greater light. “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed” (John 20:29).
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    The perfect work of our perfect and Eternal High Priest, our Mediator and Surety, secures the eternal benefits of the promised seed to all of the elect. Those given in the covenant of redemption,and saved in time, will be completely perfected as promised on the glorification on the last day.
     
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  10. SovereignGrace

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    In other words...

    100% God 0% little ole me...

    Sola deo gloria...
     
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  11. Yeshua1

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    True, that they were all expecting a future place where God dwelt and was ruling over all things, but also was true that those under the OT Covenant simple did not have the same fulfillment of the Messiah promises made unto them, as they were looking forward to his coming, and the New Covenant had to wait for Him to die and resurrect in order to usher in those promises to get fulfilled...

    Not all physical isreal received the spiritual blessings of that promise, but all those under the NEW one do!
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    You did well up to this point. You proved the word "perfect" means to bring to completion. However, in this text the word "promise" (v. 39) and "perfect" (v. 40) are synonyms. The "promise" has been clearly defined by the preceding context NOT to enter heaven but for heaven to come down to earth. Abraham was looking for a city made by God ON EARTH (vv. 13-17). Note the "us" which includes the writer who is neither in heaven or brought to "perfection" and yet this perfection will not occur "without" us. Finally, that "perfection" is described in the very next chapter which is still something we are in the "race" for, still something yet future in the form of a "kingdom" we have not yet obtained.

    You are correct that we have something "better" which is described in the next chapter. We are running a race not for salvation, we have a birth right that is not salvation but receiving a "kingdom" to rule and reign with Christ as the bride. Old Testament saints are not in this race, instead they are NOW watching us run this race. They are not in the running for this birthright and receiving of this yet future kingdom in the sense of rule as the Bride but are guests at this wedding (Rev. 19:6-9) and many other saved persons will not live in that City (Rev. 21:24).
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  13. percho

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    What promise (singular) did they not receive but looked for?

    By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, (singular) as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise (singular): For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:9,10

    These all died in faith, not having received the promises (plural), but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. V 13

    What singular promise of God would they have to receive, by inheritance, to walk into that city, in body, in spirit and in soul?

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    They died in faith not having received the promises, including, the promise, and will not receive it, the promise, without us.

    Please go to my thread on 11:39 40 for balance of post relative to Icon' post. #7
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    The plural promises all have to do with the future hope as a singular "promise". That singular hope was salvation brought to its ulitmate completion in heaven on earth - Rev. 21
     
  15. percho

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    Is that the promise of God of Titus 1:2 or is that promise something else? I guess I am asking are all the promises of God relative to the promise of God in Titus 1:2?
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    In context, the promises they were looking for were (1) Ultimate city of God on earth - vv. 10; (2) the repopulation of an entire world by their promised seed - v. 12; (3) ultimate promised land "a country" - vv. 13-16

    None of these promise have yet occurred. None of these promises will occur until Revelation 21. We have not obtained those promises yet, nor will they "without us." All of these promises will occur when we and they have been brought to complete "perfection."

    In the mean time, God has provided something better for us. That something is what we are in a race to obtain while they are watching us run that race (Heb. 12:1-2). That something is the position of firstborn which we can lose as did Esau (Heb. 12:16-17) and as did Israel (Heb. 12:18-20). The church of firstborn ones have the opportunity to "receive a kingdom" or rule with Christ in the Jerusalem as his bride (Heb. 12:28). Not all the saved will live in the city but most will live outside the city on the NEW EARTH - Rev. 21:24
     
  17. percho

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    What do you see as the dividing line as to them and as to us? When did the provision of something better, begin? What is the, "something better," ? Isn't it what is stated in verse 35? Did not the resurrection of Christ, as stated of in Romans 6:9, author better promises that is eternal salvation?

    Will we inherit something better than,, the man other than the Christ, spoken of in these verses? If so what?

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:16,29
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    The church is a New Testament revelation and New Testament in origin. It is the bride of Christ. Old Testament saints are saved but they are not part of the church. The New Jerusalem includes the faithful of the Old Testament and the church, while the vast majority of the saved dwell outside the New Jerusalem living upon the new earth - Rev. 21:24. So the church is the dividing line.
     
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  19. Iconoclast

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    [QUOTE="The Biblicist,

    It does not say that they looked for this" on earth"...
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    B.....the writer is not "physically" in Heaven.However in chapter 12 he describes that in being effectually drawn to Jesus.....they have indeed-
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,



    see part 2;
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Actually it does say this when you consider the entire context. The "heavenly" country is a new country whereupon the city dwells. The context makes it clear that is was on earth he had been looking for that city and thus an earthly city:

    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


    This text makes it clear that he was looking for that city in the land of promise, a city upon this earth. The following text denies they found it here but that they still looked for a "country" where it would be found:

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
    14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    He could have said they desired "heaven" but rather they "seek a country" and the last use of the term "country" describes earth, not heaven. The difference is the one upon which the City will be found is a "heavenly" country - Rev. 21:1-25.



    Yes, but he is not speaking of them as individuals but as the "assembly of first born ones" (lit. Gr. uses plural). Yes, but see the contextual contrast in Hebrews 12:17-20. Moses and the children of Israel came in the presence of God and angels when they were assembled at the foot of Mount Sinai. These too, come before God when they are assembled as the ekklesia of firstborn ones (plural in Greek text). In Chapter 10 he encouraged them not to "forsake the assemblying of themselves together) and in chapter 13:7-17 that assemblying is further described. The reasons for not forsaking the assemblying are given between Heb. 10:26-13:7. First, forsaking the New Testament ekklesia is in that period of history the same as forsaking the New Covenant (Heb. 10:26-30). They are encouraged to remain faithful (Heb. 10:31-11:38) in their assembling because (1) God has a better reward in the new heaven and earth for the ekklesia of Christ than he does for Old Testament saints; (2) They are in a race to attain that reward (Heb. 12:1-3). (3) Chasten aids them in running this race (Heb. 12:5-10). (3) Don't sell out your birthright like Esau; (4) You are not assembling before God in a hopeless cause like under the Old Covenant (Heb. 12:17-20); (5) Your assembling has all the support of heaven and the blessings of the New Covenant (Heb. 12:21-25). (6) This present era will pass away soon and you will receive that better reward ("kingdom") so lets remain faithful (Heb. 12:27-13:6); (7) Your continued assemblying has value to you, others and God (Heb. 12:7-17).
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Aug 25, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016

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