What purpose does election and predestination serve?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by J.D., Jan 3, 2007.

  1. J.D.

    J.D.
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    If God looks down the corridor of time, and fore-sees who will be saved and who will not be saved, then what purpose does it serve for Him to "elect" that which he has no choice in and "predestine" that which he already knows is going to happen anyway? The Bible makes a big deal out of those things ya know - that election and predestination stuff.
     
  2. LeBuick

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    Yes, it usually makes a big deal when referring to the Jews.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
     
  3. reformedbeliever

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    I hardly think that Peter was writing only to the Christian Jews. He said that they inherited futile ways of their forefathers... 1 Peter 1:18, and the sins listed in 1 Peter 4:3 seem to be from a pagan background. I think the elect and chosen here are Christians from all backgrounds. The reference to Jews only as the elect can hardly be proven... and easily disproven.
     
  4. webdog

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    The OP is faulty as it has God set only at a certain date in time. God is not bound by time. He is truly omnipresent (omnitemporal). This is the problem I have with both calvinism and arminianism. They both confine God to a certain exact point "before time" with the calvinist believing God strategically maps out all events (including who to save and not to save) and the arminian only seeing "down the corridor of time" as to what unfolds. God exists right this very moment in EVERY point of time, past, present and future. His omniscience and omnipresence coincide perfectly, not apart with His omipotence. Both C and A negate God's omnipotence.
     
    #4 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
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  5. reformedbeliever

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    I can agree with you about God's omniscience and omnipresence webdog. I do see God in all time and outside time. Time is a created thing for man and creation. God is Creator, not created, and therefore not bound by time.

    Where we probably disagree is that mankind is bound by God's knowledge of him. It is not God's foresight, but God's forknowledge, that causes man to choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will. God knows man first in His mind, and then man is bound by God's knowledge of him. Men never truly choose freely, in the sense of libertarian free will.
     
  6. webdog

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    I don't disagree that man is bound by God's foreknowledge of him. I just do not see where God existing at all points in time witnessing everything everywhere at once negates man's choice and responsibility. God knows every move I have made...am making...and will make, so I am bound by His foeknowledge. This is not negating the choices He has allowed, though.
     
  7. Jarthur001

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    This was weak a year ago and weak each time you post it.

    Omnipresence is the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time.
    This means God was in each time frame.

    Again..when you say "God is not bound by time."..what you are talking about above is atemporal....not omnipresence.

    BTW..Augustine was a "atemporal". I thought you would be happy to knew that. :)

    The right view as I see it is... God in time is He is eternal.
    "From everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." (Psalm 90:2)

    He is both in time and outside of time.

    I have tried in the past to show where this does not work as you use it. Let me this time post Dr. Michael Williams who can say it better then I can. Also I cannot find his work, but Dr Ware should be read on this. I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr Ware along these lines. Dr Ware teaches at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary


    Dr. Michael Williams
     
    #7 Jarthur001, Jan 3, 2007
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  8. skypair

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    Oooh! You couch that in some prickly premises!

    "Elect" doesn't mean "save," for instance. And "predestine" does not apply to the question of salvation individually nor does God predestine the lost individually (you were lost once yourself, no? :D)

    Here's how these terms make sense together, JD. God IS omniscient -- He can see all time from Alpha to Omega (of creation) and beyond! In doing so, God did NOT choose/"elect" who would be saved. The "elect" are those whom He saw would BELIEVE. "Foreknow" in Rom 8:29 does NOT carry with it the notion of an act of God but of a saving response to God. God, BTW, had a choice as to how He would make salvation available and He did it by the "foolish" means known as "the preaching of the gospel" 1Cor 1:21!

    So He then (Rom 8:29) predestines those who believe to the sanctification of Spirit constantly growing toward conformity to the image of His Son. THAT is what is predestined -- our sanctification, not our salvation.

    So let's see if we have this straight -- "elect" are believers. "Election" is God's purpose for the elect after they are saved. "Predestination" = "election" (as in "calling and election sure" - you can't make your salvation "sure" but you can make your God's purpose for you "sure"/stronger/more effective). Has nothing to do with salvation -- only what God plans for His own "sheep" or "chosen."

    skypair
     
  9. webdog

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    So is your soterierology :)
    As you were a year ago...wrong.
    Omnipresence
    OMNIPRES'ENCE, n. s as z. [L. omnis, and presens, present.]
    Presence in every place at the same time; unbounded or universal presence; ubiquity. Omnipresence is an attribute peculiar to God.
    Ubiquity
    UBIQ'UITY, n. [L. ubique, every where.] Existence in all places or every where at the same time; omnipresence. The ubiquity of God is not disputed by those who admit his existence.

    Is God omnipresent if He exists in the world today...but not yesterday? Tomorrow? If not, He can NOT be in "every place" or in "all places" at the same time. If time is nothing but measurement created for man, He is certainly omnipotent over it.
    I have never stated that God is atemporal, and that is NOT what I'm talking about. You now sound like Plato trying to explain his "forms". From wikipedia... Atemporal, that is, it does not exist within any time period. It did not start, there is no duration in time, and it will not end. It is not eternal. It exists outside of time. Forms are aspatial in that they have no spatial dimensions, and thus no orientation in space. They are non-physical, but they are not in the mind. Forms are extra-mental.
    Well, since I was dealing with "omnitemporal" and not "atemporal"...it makes no difference :)
    You can't even show me where my non cal view makes me sovereign in salvation...but you can show me where my view doesn't work? :laugh:
    From Dr. Williams...
    He seems to see this, too. And this is NOT omnitemporalness...how?
    Omni- is an English prefix meaning "all". It is derived from the Latin adjective omnis
    temopral- of, pertaining to, or expressing time

    God exists in ALL TIME. He exists above it...beside it...around it...after it..._____ (insert preposition here) it. True ubiquity.
     
    #9 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
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  10. webdog

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    What do you know, it's Wednesday and Thursday at some point in the world. To me, it's still Wednesday, but God exists in Cleveland, Oh and in Addis Ababa right this moment. Thursday is tomorrow for me and the today in Addis Ababa...but it is NOW to God. To those in Addis Ababa, Wednesday is yesterday to them, and today for me...but NOW to God. Time is ONLY measurement. God is omnipotent over any measurement

    Addis AbabaThu 12:33 AM HalifaxWed 5:33 PM New DelhiThu 3:03 AMAdelaide *Thu 8:03 AMHanoiThu 4:33 AMNew OrleansWed 3:33 PMAdenThu 12:33 AMHarareWed 11:33 PMNew YorkWed 4:33 PMAlgiersWed 10:33 PMHavanaWed 4:33 PMOdesaWed 11:33 PMAmmanWed 11:33 PMHelsinkiWed 11:33 PMOsloWed 10:33 PMAmsterdamWed 10:33 PMHong KongThu 5:33 AMOttawaWed 4:33 PMAnadyrThu 9:33 AMHonoluluWed 11:33 AMParisWed 10:33 PMAnchorageWed 12:33 PMHoustonWed 3:33 PM...
     
  11. russell55

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    Webdog,

    I don't disagree necessarily with what you've said, but if what you've said is true, then what does the scriptural term "before the foundation of the world" mean? As I see it, if God is always present in all times, then that phrase has to mean something like "separately from the actual events in creation." If so, then that means that God's choices made "before the foundation of the world" can't be based on what he knows will happen (or is happening), but must be made without consideration of the events of creation. Those "before the foundation" choices, then, would have to be unconditional--not conditioned on any event or thing within time.

    Unless, of course, you have a better explanation for what "before the foundation of the world means" given your model of God relationship to time.
     
  12. webdog

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    I believe it is a phrase used so finite beings bound by time can get a very slight glimpse of the awesome nature of God. Before is almost a "magical" phrase. Fortune tellers and prophets make their living forecasting the future, to which humans awe and are amazed at. There is nothing special about proclaiming and stating what's happening at present (news), or what has happened in the past (history), since everyone can do that. As I stated prior, "pro" means "above, ago, before, or after". Substitute each of those for "before", and you clearly get different meanings. Above? Either the decision was made on top of earth...or "above" time. Ago? The decision was made in the future. Before is self explanatory. After? The decision was made some point after the earth was made.

    This is where I let Bible explain Bible. Christ was the Lamb slain "before" (pro) the foundation of the world. Was He crucified at a point before creation...above time...in the future (to those living in the past)...or after the world was formed? I believe the answer is "yes" :) The decision was eternal, something that can only happen with an omnitemporal God. So, in essence, "before" is a lot deeper meaning than both calvinism and arminianism give God credit for.

    I picture a line drawn unattached within a circle. The line represents time beginning to end. The circle represents God. God being omnipresent fills the ENTIRE circle...line included...all points in time. Any decision by God is made within the circle, but not at a certain "point", meaning the decision is eternal.
     
    #12 webdog, Jan 3, 2007
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  13. Martin

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    ==O gosh, here we go again :tonofbricks:
     
  14. J.D.

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    To get back to my point, again I ask - Why did God "predestine" that which he already knew would happen anyway? Was there an answer in this thread? Did I miss it?
     
  15. whatever

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    No, there was no answer in this thread, and there is not likely to be one either. :)
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    I rest my case. Notice in every place at the same TIME!!! That is the point.
    Notice also..Existence in all places or every where at the same TIME!!!!
    God is IN time..when He works with man. Just as you have shown above.

    Thank you for final seeing this. :)

    God is indeed omnipresent. Omnipresent means God is IN all time frames. The words you used...Today and yesterday...are time frames.

    time frame

    i agree. Therefore I rest my case again. :)

    You say God is omipresent, which places God in all time frames but you use wording like.. God is timeless..which is atemporal, meaning Independent of time...when you desribe omipresents. Omnitemporal simply means "existing at all moments of time." If it is IN time...it is part of time.

    Thanks for changing your views.
    God does indeed work in time and is also outside. Both atemporalism and temporalism...as I have always said. As williams said....as Ware says.

    Therefore when the Bible says foreknow...it means before. right? :)
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    This clearly points out that God has ordained our days before there ever were any. The starting point was God's knowledge.
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    nope...they have no answer. Its just another part of the free-willism shell game-cover-up-strawman that is only a misdirection of the error found in their man centered doctrine they hold.

    Hummm. I may write that one down and use it again. :) :)
     
  19. Jarthur001

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    Let it be shown that freewillism is based on emotion and now magic. :) :) :)

    and Fortune tellers and prophets are about the same.
     
    #19 Jarthur001, Jan 4, 2007
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  20. Jarthur001

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    Please help me to understand it.

    Is is fair to say you were 100 years old, before you were 1 year old?

    Were you a believer in Christ, before you heard of Christ?

    Was your baby born before you were born?

    Did you own your car before it was made?

    I think before means sometime in the past. I do not think its deeper then this.

    be·fore : a grammatical word indicating that a point in time, event, or situation precedes another in a sequence
    1. prep in the presence of a person or body of people
    2. prep indicating that one thing is preferable to or more important than another
    3. prep located close to something but just ahead of it
    4. prep stretching ahead of somebody
    5. prep conj adv earlier than a particular date, time, or event
    6. prep conj used to indicate a sequence of actions, one preceding the other and closely connected with it
    7. adv on a previous occasion
    8. conj used to indicate that somebody would prefer to do one thing rather than what they consider to be a worse thing

    Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

    before...
    ahead of
    previous to
    earlier than
    prior to
    sooner than


    What do I not understand?
     

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