What the Word of God says on Total Depravity

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by tnelson, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. tnelson

    tnelson
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    Matt.7:16
    "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"
    The first point to understand in the doctrine of total depravity is that the nature of a person determines what fruit shall be manifested.

    (17)"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." The "corrupt tree" refers to the nature of man as he is prior to conversion.

    (18)"A good tree cannot bring forth-evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Because individuals are born into sin and are by nature spiritually dead they need to be born "from above" if they are to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    (23)"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity!"
    Apart from regeneration, men face a certain judgment for whatever "goodness" they offer to God in place of gospel repentance. Their "goodness" will be unacceptable. The key concept to comprehend is that man, according to nature, is totally without merit in every facet of his soul and therfore is not known by the Lord.

    Matt.12:33
    "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit."
    The Gospel calls upon men to recongnize the true status of their hearts. An unclear understanding of the fallen nature will lead the unregenerate to minimize sin and the atoning work of the Savior.

    Mark 7:21
    "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," From the natural heart proceeds the vilest thoughts leading to the most despicable deeds.

    (22)"Thefts, covetousness, wichedness, deceit, lasciviousness, and evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:" While it is not flattering to men to conceive of themselves as evil by nature, the reality remains. From within the soul and apart from external compulsions comes all manner of wickedness.

    (23)"All thes evil things come from within, and defile the man." The state of the natural soul is desperate because of inward defilement.

    John 3:5
    "Jesus answere, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The innate defilement of the soul leaves it helpless to effect any part of personal redemption.

    (6)"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
    By a natural birth individuals are corrupt and sinful and stand in need of regeneration in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Individuals can do nothing but what is carnal and sinful. They are totally incapable of doing that which is spiritual and good until born of the Spirit.

    (7)"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." Because individuals are born into sin and are by nature spiritually dead, having broken the laws of God, Jesus taught that all must be born "from above" if they are to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    (19)"And this is the condmnation, that light is come into the world, and men loveddarkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." If individuals are not born again, they will be left in their natural state, which is under a just judgment. Such a state is acceptable to the natural man for he loves the very sin that hardens the heart.

    John 6:44
    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Because of the just judgment of God, because of a natural love for darkness, fallen individuals cannot come to Christ. By nature, souls do not have the powere or ability to prepare themselves for conversions. The only spiritual fruit of the natural person is unbelief and corruption.

    (65)"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." The only way for the natural man to be saved is for the Father to give him a new heart, a new will, and a new mind with a renewed capacity to believe in Christ.

    John 8:34
    "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." To be the servant of sin is to be dominated by the same. Sin is the master of the soul of the unconverted. The terrible plight of man is that he has no poser to please the Lord while in the flesh and so he has no power to be saved.

    (44)"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." Not only is man by nature outside the sphere of saving grace, under condemnation, and in love with sin, but also is his desperate condition made worse in that he is a child of Satan.

    Just a few word from the Word of God on the Doctrine of Total Depravity.

    I will post more later. [​IMG]

    By His Grace
    mike
     
  2. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    You don't get it! If human nature can be changed, then the fruit of that nature can be changed.

    If human nature can be changed, then Total Depravity cannot exist! That which is total is all inclusive, nothing left out!
     
  3. Yelsew2

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    If you take this literally as it seems you are, then there is no hope for anyone after Jesus ascended into heaven, because we cannot be drawn to him, he's not here! How can anyone "come to Jesus", we do not know where he is, other than to say he is in heaven. Have you any idea where heaven is?

    My point being that God left His Word with man and that word is what draws men to Jesus. Anyone who hears the Word of God has an equal opportunity with all others who likewise hear the Word of God, to believe, and thereby come to faith in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah. One does not have to be "an elect" to hear the Word of God and come to FAITH in God. ANYONE who hears and believes has Life everlasting. Total depravity is a myth, because the very one who said those quoted words also said "IF I BE LIFTED UP, I'LL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME! "Whosoever believeth in me shall have everlasting life!" Love, Jesus.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why?? Isn't God big enough to change total depravity?? That which is totally wet can become totally dry. That which is totally hot can become totally cold. That which is totally white can become totally black. That which is totally depraved can be totally righteous. Thank God for that ...
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Why?? Isn't God big enough to change total depravity?? That which is totally wet can become totally dry. That which is totally hot can become totally cold. That which is totally white can become totally black. That which is totally depraved can be totally righteous. Thank God for that ... </font>[/QUOTE]Larry, isn't the gospel "big enough" to change total depravity? Afterall it is God's Word!

    Why must Calvinists add to the means God clearly selected thus undermining man's crucial need for it, which is demonstrated by those who take your beliefs to seed and neglect the gospel outright.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    [/qb]And with the regeneration of hte Holy Spirit, people respond to it in saving faith.

    [/qb}???? Calvinists haven't added anything to the means God clearly selected. God told us that salvation comes through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief in the truth (2 Thess 2:13). We believe that both are necessary. That some have ignored the gospel does not mean that God has changed. Those who have ignored the gospel outright are dead wrong.
     
  7. Skandelon

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    That's just it. You add to the Holy Spirits work of bringing the Gospel message in the first place. No where does scripture teach that men must be regenerated before they will positively respond to the gospel message. The best support you have is a verse where Paul is speaking to the carnal church of Corinth about the deep spiritual matters believers and non-believers cannot decern without the Spirit. A far cry from any type of proof.
     
  8. Hamtramck_Mike

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    That's just it. You add to the Holy Spirits work of bringing the Gospel message in the first place. No where does scripture teach that men must be regenerated before they will positively respond to the gospel message. The best support you have is a verse where Paul is speaking to the carnal church of Corinth about the deep spiritual matters believers and non-believers cannot decern without the Spirit. A far cry from any type of proof. </font>[/QUOTE]43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
    46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
    (Jn 8:43-47)

    What is so hard about this people? I often wonder if we are reading the same words or am I just lost in a fog somewhere!? :eek: :confused:
     
  9. Hamtramck_Mike

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    The Synod of Dordt was right in what they did.
     
  10. tnelson

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    A few more:
    Rom.3:9
    "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin:" It is not just some men who are the servants of Satan but all. The reign of sin is extensive in that it is universal. All people are under the dominion of sin so that none is righteous.

    (10)"As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:" There is none righteous, none that has an honest good principle of virtue or is governed by such a principle, none that retains anything of that image of God, consisting in righteousness wherein man was created; no, not one. This implies that if there had been but one, God whold have found him out.

    (11)"THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD." Unless God in sovereign grace had chosen certain ones to salvation, none whold have been saved; for no one seeks after God. The natural depravity of the heart leads to a natural turning away from the Lord.

    (12)"THEY ARE ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY, THEY ARE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." Despite the clear teaching on the desperate plight of man, there is a prevailing belief that man is his natural state is not totally depraved and so has the disposition or ability which enables him to repent, believe, and be saved if he so chooses. Nevertheless, the Word of God remains, "THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."

    Rom.5:12
    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Because of the transgression of Adam who acted as the federal head of the human race, all are born in sin and by nature are without spiritual life in the sight of God. If a person is to become a child of God and an heir of kingdom of heaven, the Holy Spirit must regenerate the soul.

    (19)"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." The sin of Adam has been imputed to his offspring, who have been made sinners by birth but continue to be sinners by choice. The natural man is an enemy of God with relish. There is an inbred distaste and disrespect for the perfections of God. The will of the natural man is contrary to God's will. The natural man is hostile to God's government of his life.

    Rom.6:20
    "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." As an offspring of Adam, as a child of the devil, as the servant of sin, the natural man is without any positive righteousness. He is free to act according to his nature, which is enslaved to evil. The natural man is not free to act righteously.

    Rom.7:18
    "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." The honest heart will confess that in the sphere of the flesh there is nothing of merit that pleases God. There is nothing that can become a basis for receiveing spiritual honor.

    (19)"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." The honest heart will confess to a total lack of ability to do good in the flesh. And even after conversion there is still a struggle in the sanctified soul between grace and corruption.

    Rom.8:7
    "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." The Scriptures press the point of the depravity of the natural man. The Scriptures declare that his very mind, the essence of his being, is hostil to God and refuses to be subject to the Sovereign.

    (8)"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." The natural man has absolutely nothing to offer God that is acceptable in His sight, for the corruption of the flesh is extensive and intensive.

    Rom.11:35
    "OR WHO HATH FIRST GIVEN TO HIM, AND IT SHALL BE RECOMPENSED UNTO HIM AGAIN?" If a soul is ever to be saved, every facet of the salvation process must be according to sovereign grace so that in the end it can be said that salvation is the gift of God apart from human merit.

    (36)"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." Because of the natural coruption of the heart, salvation is a gift that must be given. It is God and not man who is the epicenter around which salvation revolves.

    I will post more later. [​IMG]

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  11. Skandelon

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    You read this passage with your presuppositons in mind. We were all born "children of the devil" in the sense we were all born in sin.

    You think Jesus is speaking to non-elect people, in the Calvinistic sense, but that is just not the case. He is not addressing them as if He doesn't want them to be saved, his desire for their salvation is clear.
    Now, these Jews are being hardened for their rebellion and the Gentiles are being ingrafted.

    You can see a more complete explaination at this link: Adam Clarke Commentary

    P.S. Pride cometh before the fall. Be careful of assuming that others are the ones in a fog. One day you may look back and realize that it was you who were mistaken all along.
     
  12. Skandelon

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    You still haven't posted a single verse that supports Total Depravity. You have a bunch of good verses in favor of Original Sin, which we agree with. But nothing that says man is born unable to willingly respond positively to the powerful calling of the Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross.

    Keep looking though, this is fun. [​IMG]
     
  13. Hamtramck_Mike

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    Let's keep straight Skandelon, I was NOT assuming YOU were lost in any fog, I was pointing squarely at MYSELF when I said that ok?
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Ok
     
  15. Yelsew2

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    Why?? Isn't God big enough to change total depravity?? That which is totally wet can become totally dry. That which is totally hot can become totally cold. That which is totally white can become totally black. That which is totally depraved can be totally righteous. Thank God for that ... </font>[/QUOTE]Anything that is "Totally" loses its totality at the instant of first sign of change from "Totally", so then it is not totally, but ranges from "mostly" to "just barely" depraved.

    Man is in continuous change from conception to death. Change is the only constant. There is no point in a man's life when it can be said that man is totally anything!

    Is man capable of saving himself into eternal life? NO, because that was not given unto man as a capability. Man, then, must be saved by someone with the capability to save man....guess who?

    That however, does not mean that man is totally depraved, but rather, is incapable of saving himself.

    What is the one and only requirement placed upon man whereby if God finds that condition in man, will save him? Both Old and New testaments say the same thing, it is FAITH!
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    Spoken by Jesus to HIS chosen people the Jews. This was not speaking of the Gentiles, out of which peoples we are. So to use it as "proof text" supporting total depravity of all humanity is pure foolishness. Jesus is telling the Jews that they are not hearing him because they have elected to do the bidding of Satan, therefore, the father has not granted it to them to hear the Son.

    It is presented to us in scripture so that we will have sufficient warning to not follow the examples of the Jews.
     
  17. Skandelon

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    But people apparently aren't TOTALLY depraved from birth because it is clear from scripture that God further hardens some men's already sinful nature by making them unable to see, hear, understand and believe. Tell me if something is totally wet, can you make it more wet? Something that is totally black, can it be made blacker still?

    No?

    Then how can someone born Totally depraved be make more depraved?

    Why blind someone who was born blinded? This makes no sense!
     
  18. tnelson

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    1 Corinthians 2:14
    "But natural man receieveth not the things of the
    Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." The natural man does not generally consent to the concept that he is as bad as the Scriptures state or that he is the enemy of God. One reason for this lack of perception is an unwillingness to reflect upon spiritual matters, which appear foolish and not worthy of careful consideration.

    1 Corinthians 4:7
    "For who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

    2 Corinthians 3:5
    "Not that we are sufficient (able, powerful engouh) fo ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God." The soul that is truly saved will never take one iota of credit for its conversion. The sufficiency of saving grace is in the sovereign Saviour.

    I will post more later.

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  19. Hamtramck_Mike

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    Spoken by Jesus to HIS chosen people the Jews. This was not speaking of the Gentiles, out of which peoples we are. So to use it as "proof text" supporting total depravity of all humanity is pure foolishness. Jesus is telling the Jews that they are not hearing him because they have elected to do the bidding of Satan, therefore, the father has not granted it to them to hear the Son.

    It is presented to us in scripture so that we will have sufficient warning to not follow the examples of the Jews.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew, No. This speaks to ALL of us without exception. Think about it from your point of view for just a second. Wouldn't any unregenerate person JUMP at a free pass into Heaven knowing that their sins can be passed off onto someone else and that they can enter into the Most Holy Presence of GOD Himself when they die?

    If it is just a matter of persuasion, than the whole world should be running after the Gospel with the information age we are now in and all the missionary work that is now being done by the blessed saints of GOD, but as we well know, the Gospel and the True Jesus Christ is more hated and despised now than ever and it is waxing worse and worse not only here in America but all over this planet. This in and of itself is proof positive that:

    1&gt; Prophesy is being fulfilled at an alarming rate

    2&gt; the natural man has NO inclination toward the Gospel unless first quickened by the Holy Spirit!
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    Just to prove the point Hamtramck_mike, It is quite unlikely that there were any gentiles present during this recorded event which is a comparison, sort of, between Jesus and Abraham
    Yes, there is a lesson in this passage for all who read it, but Jesus as you can clearly see is speaking to the Jews, yes, those who initially believed what he was saying. Was this a device to further harden even those who did initially believe? Or was it simply to "show them that they did not truly believe" but were resting on their laurels as "children of Abraham"?
     

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