What theology "name" to those who deny God needs To "Grace" those saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    We have cals that say irrestible grace from god to the elect

    Arms that adhere to ressistible Grace applying to the elect

    IF one holds to JUST needing to have Gospel preached in order to those to become saved...

    is there a real name placed on that type of Sotierology? NOT no name non cal etc

    is there a real theological system name?
     
    #1 JesusFan, Aug 1, 2011
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  2. jbh28

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    I don't know of anyone here that denies the need of God's grace.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    How to biblically refute Doctrine of Universalism?

    As it seems to be getting "more steam" in even Christian circles?
     
  4. InTheLight

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    No, there isn't a name for it, and one is not needed. What do you suppose a 5th century elect person called his theology? I'm guessing "Christian".
     
  5. JesusFan

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    There are some here though that deny that God grace has to be applied before they can believe..

    They can respond by own faith by themselves...
     
  6. webdog

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    False. There is nobody here who believes that, you just keep saying that is what we believe.
     
  7. Amy.G

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    There is no one here that believes that. We all believe Eph. 2:8.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
     
  8. JesusFan

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    Do you deny that some here hold that ALL that is needed is Gospel ALONE to be able to have a person respond by faith in Jesus and get saved?

    That our faith in inherit in all of us, NOT from God at all?
     
  9. Winman

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    You have been told a hundred times, but cannot seem to grasp it. We are all created with the ability to believe. We choose to believe or not believe people everyday.

    Take evolution for example, I DO NOT believe it, but some people do. And some people who were brought up in a secular home and believed in evolution changed what they believed when they got saved and heard the creation account from the Bible. Believeing is a choice.

    But nobody can believe what they do not know. If God did not speak to his prophets like Moses, you and I would have no idea of the creation account, because Moses recorded that. We wouldn't know the world was created in six days. We wouldn't know the order of creation.

    We wouldn't know about Noah and the worldwide flood if not for the scriptures.

    We all have the ability to believe, but no one can believe what they have not heard. If you had never heard of the six day creation account, and if you had never heard of Noah's flood, it would be absolutely impossible to believe it true.

    God's word is his grace.

    Let me ask you, how did you find out about Jesus? Were you walking down the street one day absolutely ignorant of Jesus and God zapped you with this knowledge? Is that how you learned that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins?

    I can't speak for others, but I first heard of Jesus when my parents took me to church as a young boy. I heard from the preacher, my Sunday School teachers, and from reading the Bible. That's how I learned.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Calvinists love to quote John 6:44, but they almost always ignore verse 45 which explains HOW a person is drawn. A person is drawn when they hear the gospel, when they are taught and learn from the Father. The Father is the one who spoke to the prophets and told them what to write. That is how you know about Jesus.

    The scriptures are the supernatural work of God. Do you believe men just made the scriptures up? No, the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the scriptures. This is a supernatural work. It is the word of God that teaches and informs you of Jesus so that you can make the choice of either believeing, or not believeing.

    God came down to our level. He doesn't require anything supernatural from us. He gave us a literal book you can hold in your hands and read. And you can decide whether it is true and believe it, or you can choose to believe it false and not believe it.

    This is so simple a little child could understand it, but you have been told numerous times and seem unable to grasp such a simple concept.

    Truth is, I think you know exactly what we are saying.
     
    #9 Winman, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2011
  10. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    I would give more, save for the limit.
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    JF, this is not accurate. EVERYONE acknowledges that salvation and faith are both directly from God. The "calvinist" suggests that it comes upon a person (only certain persons) as a result of God selecting them and passing over others. Myself (some other "non-cals") suggest that all men have the God granted ability to express and have faith. Both strongly agree that faith is from God, both acknowledge that God is sovereign.
     
  12. Allan

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    Actually, though I don't hold to that view myself, they hold that the Gospel IS the grace of God (manifest so-to-speak).
    However I can find no where in scripture where it states that God must give to man - faith, as if it is something he never had.
    What I mean here is that God must give it to man, in the sense that man never had it. You wont find that in scripture no will you find it ever described in like manner.
    For me I find it difficult to agree with the Reformed position on their Ordo Salutis.. and in this - regeneration preceding faith. Here is 'one' dilemma for me. When a person is regenerate he is given a new heart, new desires, literally a new man.. yet God must give him faith cause even with a new heart, and new desires, he still will not choose Christ. Everything in them has been made alive/renewed EXCEPT faith.

    While faith is common to all men, it is not faith itself that saves and THAT must be understood. It is the object of faith which saves. No man, of or more accurately 'by himself' will seek after God or come to know Him. IOW - Man is not going to go looking for the God of the scriptures via his own understanding since he (of himself) doesn't even know he 'need's God.

    It is for this reason God come to man, the very reason the Spirit of God is sent into 'the world' to convict 'the world' of sin, righteousness, and The Judgment to come. (IOW - if He doesn't reveal these thing no man will come to know them through his normal means of obtaining information).

    Thus without God coming To man, intervening on man's behalf, and providing the object OF faith through which salvation is obtained.. no man would HAVE a faith in God through Christ Jesus. It is in 'this' manner that God is said to give us faith, for He has given us Christ Jesus. These emphasize the various aspects of God's grace toward man. Biblically, the definition of faith is simple and does not take into account that men don't have it.

    Saving faith is not some special 'type' of faith (as if there are different kinds like there are animals) and thus distinct and different from other types of faith. In fact the very phrase 'saving faith' specifically establishes not 'what' faith is doing, but 'where' faith is being set. Again here is what must be understood - Faith in and of itself is neither good or bad, righteous or unrighteous, it has no value by itself, thus in a sense is neutral. What gives faith value is NOT faith itself but the OBJECT to which faith has united itself to. Thus you have godly faith or ungodly faith, vain faith or faith, ect... Think about it, how can a believer have 'vain faith' (as Paul describes it) if God gave it to them? He places value of faith not on the fact God gave it to them and thus it must be real, but instead places the value or trueness of it in the work of Christ being true, and thus our faith having value (saving) due to His work.

    All men have certain things that are common to all men such as faith, mercy, love ect... How many Reformed people get upset when they hear Jesus comparing the love of God with that love of the natural unsaved father of a child as being similar (yet with God much more)? What makes love Godly or ungodly.. is it the love itself? No. And thus we note that God does not give us a new kind of love at salvation so our new love is holy and good as opposed to our old love. In the same way nor is mercy or other such things. What gives any one of these eternal value is object to which it is united with or to, just as faith. Not that God gave us something we didn't have (faith) but that God gave us Christ that we might believe - have faith. The fact we as believers DO believe is by the grace and mercy of God.
     
    #12 Allan, Aug 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2011
  13. JesusFan

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    Both do NOT affirm the Sovereignity of God in same fashion though!

    Some DO hold that man can freely respond by faith that is within themselves, which is NOT the view of either cals/Arms!

    just asking those who hold to such to ackowledge that they do indeed teach a form of Semi - Pel!
     
  14. webdog

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    You never learn... :BangHead:
     
  15. JesusFan

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    just answer this,,,

    Do you say that the Gospel ALONE saves and produces faith in us, or that God still has to do "something" along with that?
     
  16. Skandelon

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    How many times must we answer this question JF?

    The gospel is the means by which grace is applied (even some Cals affirm this in regard to the application of grace to the elect).

    Does the bible say that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, or does it say that the gospel plus something else is the power of God unto salvation?
     
  17. JesusFan

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    it is indeed the Agent/power that God uses to 'wake up" His elect in Christ, so faith is produced in them, but still need to be elected by god in order to it to do its desired result!

    Those elect will hear and beklieve, those not will not...
     
  18. Skandelon

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    If that is the way you want to believe it happens, fine, but either way the GRACE is being applied THROUGH the Gospel. For you it is applied irresistibly to a select few, for me it is as universal as the Gospel appeal, but can be rejected or "traded in for a lie."
     
  19. JesusFan

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    either way its still the fact that God has to permit sinners to be able to reply by faith through enabling them by applying a seperate Grace apart from hearing the gospel

    Cals see it as irrestible
    Arms that we can resisit getting saved

    Either way a seperate act of Grace!
     
  20. Skandelon

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    The permission is strongly implied in the appeal. No reason biblically to believe it isn't granted to all who hear the gospel. And, no, don't point to John 6 because those people hadn't yet received the gospel and thus hadn't yet been enabled. It wasn't until after he was lifted up that he "drew all men to himself" by sending the gospel to be preached to every tribe, nation and tongue.
     

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