1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

What view of justice is "carnal" and what is not?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 18, 2011.

Top Posters
Page 5 of 5
  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
     
    #81 preacher4truth, Dec 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2011
  2. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am glad, yay VERY GLAD that God does not bow down to the system(s) of ANY man.
     
    #82 quantumfaith, Dec 21, 2011
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    based upon all of the various postings here on this OP...

    Still seems that non cals have 3 big problems with the Bible regading this doctrine of Election...

    They fail to see that God has to work with us as He does in individual Election, as He is the One making decision to save us, as they deny the fall "spiritually killed" us off!

    they fail to see that jesus actually paid the sin debt/secured real salvation for His people, not a potential "hope so" salvation...

    try to impose mans standards of goodness amd mercy/judgement, flaw i that is that is stays man centered focus, and that by sinful beings to boot!
     
    #83 JesusFan, Dec 22, 2011
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    17
    "It's not fair if He is the One who does the choosing!!!" replies man, no matter that they deny they do so. :tear: :wavey:

    "Who are you, O man, that replies against God?"

    "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?"
     
    #84 preacher4truth, Dec 22, 2011
  5. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    Will those elected by God complain that God chose them, would that "not be fair?" Who are they compared to someone?
     
    #85 JesusFan, Dec 22, 2011
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Presumption my foot. There is no other conclusion. If one serves peanut butter to one whom he knows has a food allergy, and knowing the consequences, there aren't many alternatives to the conclusion that it was the hosts will to harm his guest.

    Foreknowledge implies will. Either that or indifference.
     
    #86 Aaron, Dec 22, 2011
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is NOT what those who hold to some semblance of free will think at all. You just love to pronounce what you THINK others think.
     
    #87 quantumfaith, Dec 22, 2011
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Oh, your feet do it too?

    Yes there is. There is the conclusion I presented, you know the one that the majority of believers have come to. Now, you can continue to deny such a conclusion even exists, because after all then you wouldn't have to debate against it...and that is much easier for you.

    You know, you may be on to something. If I just deny your conclusion even exists then I won't have to debate the merits of your claims. :laugh:

    Huh, are you debating my premise or yours, because I don't believe God "serves peanut butter" (causally determines evil), that is your view, remember?

    I foreknew my kids would deal with sin before having children. Did I will for them to sin by choosing to have them? No. Was I indifferent to what I knew? No.

    So, again you are proven to be incorrect.
     
    #88 Skandelon, Dec 23, 2011
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not by any degree of the presentation of the Scripture, preponderance of evidence, or rational thought.

    The inevitable result of true theology is "a sound mind."

    If one asks, "Did the Holocaust happen?" and another answers, "Hitler killed 6 million jews, didn't he?" THAT would be "presuming the point up for debate," or "begging the question." But, if it were a given that Hitler killed 6 million jews, then the fact of the Holocaust is a logical conclusion.

    The foreknowledge of God is a given, the fact of will and purpose is the inevitable conclusion. Mislabeling it as a logical fallacy only reveals the presence of incompatible elements in a fragmented and erroneous system of thought. You cannot exonerate God of the charges you assert Calvinism levels against Him, UNLESS you deny Omniscience. That is your ONLY logical escape.

    Concerning your desperate appeal to procreation as a rebuttal:

    God is the Creator of your children. Not you. Marriage is honorable and commanded (unless one has the gift of celibacy), and God has determined that even in your sinful state that you must yield your body to your spouse, and has assigned you the responsibility of bringing up His heritage (not yours) in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    In other words, you do not have authority nor the power to not procreate. God created your children on the Sixth Day. He simply brought them into the world through natural means in the last few years. He determined you would be their father, and the woman who bore them to be their mother. (And here you thought you were freely making all the choices.)

    And, though it may have yet to be revealed, He determined before any were born whether they would be vessels of wrath or mercy.

    What do you think marriage is? Is it a divine institution or not? Is it the fulfillment of God's will (though corrupted by sin), or is it simply a situation that lets lets you hallow the satisfaction of your lusts?

    You need to view your children in a new light. I kind of feel for them that you would have presented them as evidence to support bad theology, and elevate yourself more highly than you ought.
     
    #89 Aaron, Dec 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2011
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I suppose in your world the 'sound mind' is defined as the mind who agrees with the deterministic premise, right?

    I'm trying to follow your reasoning here. Is the question "Did the Holocaust happen?" supposed to parallel "Does God causally determine all things?"

    And is the answer, "Hitler killed 6 million jews, didn't he?" supposed to be reflective of your response, "What he foreknew and created he must have determined to happen."

    Really? You are equating me, and thousands of other scholarly believers, with Ahmadinejad and other holocaust deniers? As if the finite speculations about the causal results of the creative working of an all powerful infinite Being in relation to a finite universe is somehow equal to denying a undeniable historical event??? REALLY? Wow... I've read many a debate on this subject and this is a first... wow...

    Right, and since when is determinism a given? Because that is what you are arguing here; that determinism is as sure has the Holocaust, its "a given." Aaron, that is the text book example of the Fallacy of petitio principii (Question begging: "assuming the initial point"). It's the lowest form of debate.

    It is a fact upon we both happen to affirm, but to presume, as you do, that foreknowledge equals predetermination is what I am claiming is unfounded. You have never rebutted the point I raised against such assumptions, you've only continue to claim it is a given without any support.

    Aaron, with all due respect, but DUH! It is an ANALOGY. In YOUR reflection of the analogy mankind in relation to God is more like 'property' (robots/dogs) and in my analogy mankind in relation to God is more like a child to a parent. Scripture bares this out by actually carrying that analogy as God is made known as a heavenly Father, not a tyrant landlord.

    That is a complete misrepresentation of Paul's intent in Romans 9. And I'd be happy to discuss the merits of that claim if you will stop assuming your perspective is a "given" long enough to actually engage in a debate.

    You've reach an all new low Aaron...wow... To deduce THIS from an analogy about how God has chosen to relate to mankind? Really? Come on, brother, you are better than this... :tear:
     
    #90 Skandelon, Dec 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2011
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You should step back and think before you post. It's an example of Begging the Question. You don't recognize it because you don't know what you're talking about when you indict others for it.

    It could be any question: Did we evolve? We're here, so we must have. Is the Bible the inspired? Of course, the Bible says so.

    Your acts of procreation are analogous to God's role in Creation? You see, Charles? You understand neither.
     
    #91 Aaron, Dec 23, 2011
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I know what the fallacy is Aaron, I spent eight years in competitive debate and still help judge on occasion. And, as I explained, you equating divine foreknowledge with predetermination as if it is a given is the quintessential example of the question begging fallacy.

    More so than your act of creating a robot...

    It is a biblical analogy to relate God to a parent, so its not really original to me.
     
    #92 Skandelon, Dec 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2011
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 5 of 5
Loading...