What Voids Faith Today?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Enow, Aug 27, 2009.

  1. Enow

    Enow
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    Hot topic for application which is for examining ourselves in the faith:

    Since judgment is coming on the House of God: How does one obey the Gospel of God?

    1 Peter 4:For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    Romans 10: 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    So what voids faith today?

    Romans 4: 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    Romans 11: 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world..... 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    If God be willing, let the prunings of dead works the deny Him begin by His grace....

    Just in case readers are thinking I am selecting a particular denomenation:

    Dead works that voids faith:

    #1. The Commitment to follow Christ (given at altar calls to save themselves) Galatians 5:1 John 1:12-13 Ephesians 1:12-15

    #2. Seeking a continual filling of the Spirit when we are already filled and thus saved. Matthew 9:17 Colossians 2:5-10

    #3. Seeking another spirit to receive even if they call that spirit the Holy Spirit 2 Corinthians 11:1-4

    #4. Seeking another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues Ephesians 4:4-6 1 Corinthians 12;13

    #5. Seeking to be identified as a Law Keeper such as "Sabbath Keeper" while condemning others for not keeping the sabbath Philippians 3:8-11

    #6. Roman Catholicism Hebrews 4:1-3,9-11

    #7 Promise Keepers program Galatians 3:1-3 Romans 10:1-5

    That's pretty much covering all the denomenations so I am not singling out a specific one as you can see.

    Anyone else care to continue to prune or to contest the pruning list above?
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    In other words, trust God and be a good neighbor?

    If so, how much factual and theological information does one need in order to trust God and be a good neighbor? The devil is in the details.
     
  3. FlyForFun

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    "To whom much is given, much will be required..."

    I didn't mess with all that theology stuff -- I stayed pure.

    Maybe we were simply "pure" to man-centered, selfish, sinful inclinations of the heart instead of doing the hard work to learn what God wanted and had so clearly described in his Scriptures for those who took the time and effort to see?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    In 1John 2 -- The apostles says that the one who claims to know Christ should keep his commandments -- and if he does not - then he is not telling the truth about his current claim to know Christ.

    In 1Cor 6 Paul says "be not deceived" and then provides a list of rebellious actions saying that those who do such things do not inherit eternal life.

    in Romans 2 Paul makes it very clear - that the difference between those who "persevere in doing good" vs 6 and those who do not -- is the difference between "immortality and eternal life " and not.

    In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

    In Matt 18 Christ shows the problem of "forgiveness revoked" for one fully forgiven servant of the King that does not show to others the very same act of forgiveness shown to him.

    in Rev 14 the saints are defined as those who "keep the commandments of God".

    in 2Thess 1 Paul describes God as dealing out retribution in flaming fire - to those who "obey not the Gospel".

    in John 14 Christ said "if you love me Keep my commandments".

    In Romans 2 Paul says "it is not the hearers of the law that are Just before God but the doers of the law WILL be justified".

    The list is long.

    But those are some Bible texts that should be "looked at" if the question is -- what invalidates the claim to know Christ.

    Basically the rule is simple - rebellion invalidates worship.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. billwald

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    >in John 14 Christ said "if you love me Keep my commandments".

    The Heidelberg Catechism fudges by teaching we obey the commandments because we are thankful for our salvation and not because we have to. Of course, they limit God's LLLLaw to the ten big ones. In other words, if we are not law keepers then we are ungrateful wretches. Who could ever meet this new standard?
     
  6. annsni

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    So we can void our salvation by making a commitment to God? Wow - didn't know that. I've just read the Old Testament and neither did a lot of those guys. Hmmmmm.....
     
  7. Marcia

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    The verses posted above are not about losing salvation. We cannot void true faith.
     
  8. Enow

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    Seems that is what 1 John 3:22-24 says and confirms your statement.

    When we start making a list for that salvation, then at what point does the simplicity of the Gospel cease? The moment we move away from our hope in Him by looking to ourselves as well? The moment we do that, is the point where we are in danger of drawing back when He appears because we would wonder if "we did enough", but if the hope in living this christian life as well as for teternal life is on Jesus, then when our hope appears... we would rejoice...by His grace.
     
  9. Enow

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    1 John 3:3 & Jude 1:24-25

    Trust is the basis for all relationship and if we trust Him to be Our Saviour for eternal life, then we can trust Him to be Our Good Shepherd to live this christian life as the just shall live by faith in Him and all His promises to us.
     
  10. Enow

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    1 John 3:22-24 pretty much sums up the commandment for salvation and for living as His respectively.

    If we are not of the letter .... then when does the exhortation and guideline in our relationship become a religion? When it becomes a list with the emphasis on the believer to do? And by it, the knowledge of sin or not being justified by that list?

    The just living by faith means we have been bought with a preice and selaed as His so now that we have that reconciled relationship with God mad epossible through Jesus Christ, we shall live by faith that He will help us live as His with His word to guide us and to strengthen us in our walk with Him.

    If we keep looking to the believer to be serious in following Him, then faith is void because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God. If we exhort the believer to encourage him in the faith we have in Jesus Christ in knowing how serious He is in finishing His work in us to His glory, we all can rest in Him.

    In other words, if we, as sinners, could not save ourselves, then we as believers, cannot live as His by the religious flesh. Both has to be done by faith for without faith it is impossible to please Him. You might as well be doing this: :BangHead:
     
  11. Enow

    Enow
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    No one can.

    We are either in a reconciled relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ or we are in a religion.

    We are either saved now and be witnesses of the Good News now, or we are just like every other religion in the world where the hope and emphasis are shared and divided on the believer with whomever or whatever he believes in.

    Either Jesus gets the glory for no flesh shall glory in His presence or.. we are disillusioned in thinking that there will be alot of "stuck-ups" in Heaven.
     
  12. Enow

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    No, we can void our faith when we look to ourselves in living that christian life by the flesh by keeping that commitment to follow Him. We have been bought with a price and sealed as His for beleiving in Him, but if not mixed with faith, believing will not profit us.

    We are either witnesses of Him.. by our faith in Him and thereby live by faith in Him, or we are living religiously by keeping that commitment to do so as it speaks of ourselves and not of the faith in Christ. You cannot do both.

    In Alcoholic Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous: both will have a higher power to relate to but the overcoming takes the commitment of the AA or NA to overcome so in the eyes of everyone there and in the eyes of the world, they did it: they can point to the many different higher power and give them the credit, but because of that commitment shared by all, the person did it: not his or her higher power. See the vanity? Matthew 15:7-11,19

    What comes out of our mouths defiles us as in bearing a false witness.

    John the Baptist said he had to decrease in his witness of himself if he was to seek the glory of the One he was sent to prepare the way for. John 3:28-30

    To be a faithful witness, one cannot speak of themselves: John 5:31

    To turn their relationship of trust into a religion of keeping that commitment to follow Him is speaking of themselves and their glory... not His: John 7:18-29 2 Corinthians 4:5-7

    Since no flesh shall glory in His presence... 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 Then we should not be glorying in ourselves as a commitment keeper nor in men as Pormise Keepers, ( 1 Corinthians 3:21-23 ) if we are to have our faith in the Son of God be known in how we are living the christian life..by faith. Galatians 2:20

    So if that sign we are holding isn't Him alone: :jesus: then we are not holding that sign at all.
     
  13. annsni

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    Let's take a look at the passage in it's entirety:

    By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

    19By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.


    So you're saying that this passage is the Gospel? This is it? All of the Gospel is laid out in these passages? However, I do not see the Gospel here - I see a commandment to the believers to do as God tells us to do and when we do that, we are proving that we have the Spirit in us.

    I Corinthians 15:3-8 lays it out a bit more: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter,b and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. "

    I do not see in Scripture where we can do anything to give up our salvation - since our salvation is given of God and not of us.

    Those things you've listed do not "void" faith. They may be a substitute for true faith or they may be roadblocks to becoming more like Christ but they will not "void" faith.

    To say that "working out" our salvation will void it is ridiculous. I don't always agree with something like Promise Keepers and all they stand for but to say that going there will make you lose your salvation is laughable. Let's really think about how God has given us over and over again in Scriptures instruction in how to live our lives yet you're saying that we're not to do so?
     
  14. Enow

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    We can void faith, but we can return to that faith with His help and grace as we can be like sheep gone astray, but can return to the Shepherd of our souls.
     
  15. annsni

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    If we are told to "work out our salvation", just how are we to do that? You're saying that we can't. I'm not saying that we earn our salvation or even work to keep it but God certainly shows us that there are responsibilities of a believer and that we must run the race. We don't sit on the sidelines and expect God to do it for us. He has given us eternal life. We didn't give it to ourselves. On what basis does God give us salvation?
     
  16. billwald

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    >On what basis does God give us salvation?

    PLEASE explain why God needs a "basis" that humans can understand? Can't God simply do what is right according to God's understanding?

    "Will not the Creator of the universe do what is right?"
     
  17. annsni

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    See, if there is a basis that God gives us salvation based on what we do, then of course there's the consideration that we can do something to take it away.

    BUT if God gives us salvation based on His own good pleasure, then how can we take it away?
     
  18. Marcia

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    If you mean by voiding faith, losing salvation, I disagree.

    If you mean by voiding faith that believers can drift away from God, I agree.
     
  19. annsni

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    Since he/she is speaking of "pruning" in the OP, I'd say they mean "losing salvation"
     
  20. billwald

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    Ann (#17) is correct.

    >We are either in a reconciled relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ or we are in a religion.

    We are either in a reconciled relationship in our mind (understanding, belief) with God through faith in Jesus Christ or we are in a religion.

    On the other hand, by common definition, usage, and understanding, Christianity. The quoted statement is an illustration of what I mean by Christianity being a gnostic religion. One characteristic of gnosicism is changing the meaning of common words so that only insiders, those with gnosis, can understand. I suspect that most everyone on this list understands the meaning of the cited statement but almost no non-evangelical protestants would understand ergo a gnostic usage.
     

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