What Was the "Sin" of Sodom?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, May 14, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    It has been suggested that "sodomy" is NOT a good translation and has nothing to do with homosexual behavior.

    So I'm wondering, using the OT passages in Genesis, what exactly WAS the sin of Sodom?

    IF homosexuality is a part of it, then would the use of "sodomite" be justifiably applicable to such people?

    Thanks.

    " . . and such WERE some of you, but now . . ."
     
  2. Haruo

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    A minor quibble first: the term at issue was not "sodomy" (which never occurs in KJV) but "sodomite(s)", which occurs about 5 times. "Sodomy" is a legal term of some importance in American jurisprudence, though its meaning varies drastically from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; in some states it is defined so as to criminalize homosexual behavior; in other states it is a predominantly heterosexual sin. But it is not a Biblical term, legal or otherwise. (At least, not a KJV term, and I don't recall having seen a Bible version in which it appeared.)

    Secondly, in my opinion the clearest Biblical statement about the sin of Sodom is not in Genesis but in Ezekiel, 16:49 to be precise:
    The Genesis account does not specify the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah that caused the LORD God to send his angels to Sodom; clearly ([incidentally?] homosexual) gang rape of those to whom hospitality was due was one of its manifestations, but no more than that can be said from the Genesis account.

    Haruo
     
  3. Ben W

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    I have an idea that Eros based rampant Promiscuity even to beastiality might still be a way off what was going on.
     
  4. latterrain77

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    In a nutshell, the sin of Sodom was PRIDE and arrogance (Eze. 16: 49). Homosexuality is NOT among the list of the sins defined in the Eze. 16 text. Thanks! latterrain77
     
  5. Johnv

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    In an effort to be biblically educated on the issue, I just reread the story of S & G.

    What a shock!

    Homosexual behavior had NOTHING to do with their destruction. Read it for yourself.
     
  6. PJ

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    Sure. "Sodomite" could be used in reference to the inhabitants of Sodom, or one guilty of sodomy.
    PJ
     
  7. HankD

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    Genesis 19:
    4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
    5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
    7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
    8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    Jude 1
    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    2 Peter 2
    6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
    9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
     
  8. Ben W

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    Pretty well sums it up Hank [​IMG]
     
  9. PJ

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    Thanks, Hank ... I was just getting around to that.
    PJ [​IMG]
     
  10. latterrain77

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    Hi Hank D and others. The Hebrew word "to know" in the Gen. account does not necessarily imply sexual connotation. The Gen. 19: 5 word is "yada" which means to "ascertain by seeing."

    It could be that the mob arrived at Lot's home to ascertain the military aspirations of the visitors - a justified fear given the the immediate destruction that soon followed this incident and the horrendous war that Sodom had just endured prior (Gen. 14). The Sodomites must have been on "high military alert" given all of the warfare. The responses by Lot could just as easily be referring to this.

    Lot offering his daughters could have been a "trade off" to prevent the men from attacking the visitors in a violent way, not a sexual one. Abraham did something similar with his wife Sarah - though not exactly the same (Gen. 12: 11-20).

    The Hebrew word "yada" can also mean to "know" in the intimate sense. However, in matters of intimacy, the word "yada" is often translated "knew" rather than "know" to signify the difference (Gen. 4: 1, 4:17, 4: 25, etc).

    The Sodomites had "daughters" which could ONLY have resulted from "heterosexual" unions (Eze. 16: 49). One cannot have a daughter from a homosexual union. Please explain this obvious disparity.

    None of this is to suggest that there weren't homosexuals in Sodom (there have been homosexuals in EVERY nation throughout time). However, since the Eze. text specifically excluded homosexuality as one of the sins of Sodom, why should we highlight it anymore than the Bible does? Thanks! latterrain77

    [ May 15, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]
     
  11. Johnv

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    To add to latterrain's comments, the Hebrew word for a hemosexual act is shãkhabh. If the story about the angels says that the men wanted to yãdhà (become familiar with) them, not shãkhabh (have homosexual fornication with) them. Sexually, a man can only shãkhabh another man. To say that a man wanted to yãdhà another man is incorrect Hebrew grammar.

    The absolute sacredness of a guest was a principle well known to Lot. Lot also understood the way crowds give in to hostile acts against outsiders (see Judges 19:1- 21:25 for a similar tale of hostility to strangers.) So he protected his guests and refused to hand them over to the crowd. When the crowd insisted, he offered his two daughters as the most expedient diversion for a hostile situation.

    Ezekiel 16:48-50 clearly lists the specific sins of Sodom as pride, plenty, laziness, uncaring for needy, haughty and worshipping idols.
     
  12. HankD

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    Dear latterrain and johnv,

    I don't buy it.

    Lot offered his daughters to these perverts to "yada" to keep them from doing their wickedness.

    Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew (yada) Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

    The context of Genesis 19 and the use of "yada" leaves no doubt as to the intent of the sodomites.

    The word "porneia" is used of the sodomites in the NT. "Porneia" includes all sexual sins including bi-sexual.

    So what if the sodomites had children?
    Many modern sodomites are bi-sexual.
    Then as now no doubt.

    Believe what you will.

    HankD

    [ May 15, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  13. Johnv

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    HankD, you're confusing NT Greek and OT Hebrew. The two are not interchangeable.

    The word "sodomite" referrs to sexual contact other than genital-to-genital contact, regardless of the genders of the individuals. (I will refrain from being more descriptive). Most married persons are sodomites. This behavior is not sinful in marriage.

    In the NT, sodomy and fornication (sex outside of marriage) are equally forbidden. But in the story of the men and the angels, the men were neither looking for neither fornication nor sodomy.
     
  14. HankD

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    The entire OT has been translated into Greek - The Septuagint (LXX).

    Many OT lines of Hebrew Scripture have been translated into the inspired Koine Greek New Testament.

    Jude uses the word "porneia" of the sodomites.

    Like I said, believe what you will, no one has to answer me.

    HankD
     
  15. latterrain77

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    Hi HankD. So, you are saying that the Sodomites were bi-sexual and not homosexual?

    You said; Lot offered his daughters to these perverts to "yada" to keep them from doing their wickedness. The wickedness that LOT was trying to prevent could have been something other than sex on the scale that your idea requires. It could also have been murder, war, or aggressive interrogation and confrontation. The dynamic of Abraham's example is similar (Gen. 12: 13). Also, don't you think the word "pervert" is a bit aggressive HankD? No need to be so hard. We are searching and brainstorming using the BIBLE to find truth.

    Are you suggesting that thousands of Sodomite men wanted to collectively have sex with two angels? (Gen. 19:1). It is not possible for human beings to have sexual relations with Angelic beings. Where does it say in the Bible that human beings can have sexual relations with angelic beings?

    How could there have been so many Sodomite men (old and young) unless they were born by heterosexual union? (Gen. 19: 4). It is not biologically possible in homosexual union.

    Again, none of this is to suggest that there wasn't any homosexuality in Sodom (there is homosexuality in every nation). The sins of Sodom are PRIDE and ARROGANCE as stated in Eze. 16. Thanks! latterrain77
     
  16. Johnv

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    The entire OT has been translated into Greek - The Septuagint (LXX).
    The entire OT has been translated into Chinese, too. So what? It's still apples and oranges. The Septuagint is nothing more than a translation. The greek word Jude used is irrelevant. Stick to the story of S & G in the original Hebrew and you'll find no reference to homosexuality being the reason for their destruction.
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    HankD, you are absolutely right on! [​IMG]

    What these two are doing here are posing the very same arguments found all over the internet by those who seek to excuse their sins of homosexuality before righteous Almighty God. (and yes, I do mean homosexuality - it is a CHOICE).

    Romans Chapter 1 makes it perfectly clear.

    I am no Biblical scholar, but when I read the word "know" in the Bible as a man "knowing" his wife or these men in Sodom wanting to "know" the angels, it is transparent what is meant. What is going on in this thread is typical liberal spin, seeking to "parse" words. Depending on what the word "is is", we all remember. :rolleyes:

    What no one has mentioned in this discussion so far is the religion of the day, the religion of Canaan - and Sodom & Gomorrah - which was worship of Baal, a religion that had it's roots from Nimrod. The worship of Baal, Marduk, Molech from Asteroth and from Ur - all of the gods of this ancient time included that of temple prostitutes, both men and women, sex with children, same sex, sex with beasts, all sorts of sexual sins were tied in with these religions, as well as human sacrifice, tied in with astrology and witchcraft - all tied together with fertility (thus explaining how children would be born in a homosexual society - fresh people needed for sacrifices and keeping the human race going, etc.).

    No doubt they excused their aberrant (according to Romans 1) behavior as pleasing to God - just as we hear today. No doubt there were big parades - just as we have in the gay rights parades today. And we know from history and archeology that human sacrifice was part of the religion, even that of burning children - just as we have today (abortion, selling (America) & eating (China) - aborted fetuses and their parts).

    It's all a stench before Almighty God. But as we are reminded in Ecclesiastes, there is NOTHING new under the sun. The excuses we see today on the subject of men lying with men and women lying with women and doing that which is unseemly and leaving the natural affection thereof (Romans 1), and the "parsing" of words thereof, were no doubt, going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and the presence of Lot and his family (righteous before God) must have seared their consciences. These men of Sodom wanted this fresh "meat" called angels - so badly, they tried to break down Lot's door! It is another time in history when those who will have their spiritual eyes opened can see the spiritual battle going on before the judgment. (Much as is going on today before judgment comes.)

    But because we live in the age of God's Magnificent Grace, there are some who forget about the Holiness and Righteousness of Almighty God. They turn the truth of God into a lie, just as in Romans chapter 1. (i.e., I'm okay, you're okay, lets accept everyone's diversity) :( :rolleyes:

    I did a Biblical word search on sodomite. Note the word "sodomite" is in small letters in some verses, but where it seems to be referring to Sodom, it is capitalized.

    I thought this first verse was interesting...

    Deut.23[17] There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

    (why would the word "sodomite" be referred to in the male gender ?)
    :rolleyes:

    1Kgs.14[24] And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

    1Kgs.15[12] And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

    1Kgs.22[46] And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

    2Kgs.23[7] And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

    Ezra.7[36] Then said I, Abraham prayed first for the Sodomites, and Moses for the fathers that sinned in the wilderness:

    Anyway, thanks, HankD, for standing for the Truth of God's Word, not some putrified watered down, "parsed," twist-it-to-mean-what-you-want-it-to-mean-to-justify-sin, version. [​IMG]

    And Latterrain, please! :rolleyes:

    Ever heard of gay PRIDE and who hasn't seen a gay/lesbian/transexual parade on news clips that wasn't arrogant? They EXUDE arrogance and in-your-face as they defiantly march in our city streets in their garish costumes! :mad:
     
  18. latterrain77

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    Hi SheEagle. Thank you for your comments. I agree entirely with you that boisterous displays of pride and arrogance are SIN. However, arrogance and pride extends to every walk of life, including many in the church. Arrogance, pride and "In your face" antics occur just as frequently in some churches as they do among secular radical groups. I've seen some mighty garish costumes on some preachers too (sequins, big puffed up blow dried hairdo's and all). [​IMG] No group has cornered the market on garishness.

    I do not conduct my personal Bible Studies from Internet postings SheEagle (other than here on the BB). I use an old and well worn King James Bible along with a NASB for cross-reference. I also use a Strongs Concordance.

    I respectfully disagree with your singular view concerning the use of the word "know" in the Bible. Please refer to my earlier post on this. The translations of the Hebrew word "yada" are clear. JohnV has also raised some fantastic points regarding the Hebrew wording.

    The Sodomites were heterosexual. The Bible tells us that they had daughters (Eze. 16: 49). Surely you agree that daughters cannot be born from homosexuality. In addition, the Sodomite nation was large and populated. That population did not grow as a result of homosexuality - of course! How do you think all of those Sodomites became born SheEagle? There really is only one answer - and it isn't homosexuality. What do you think?

    The sins of Sodom are defined SheEagle. You can find the list in Eze. 16. Nowhere in that list is homosexuality listed. If Sodom and homosexuality are as clearly linked as so many seem to think, then why doesn't the very specific list of Sodom's sins in Eze 16 bear this out?

    You see SheEagle, I try to go by what the Bible actually SAYS, not by what I've been told. Is it possible that those who HATE a particular group are themselves guilty of PRIDE and ARROGANCE? (Matt. 7: 3).

    No one has suggested that we should overlook sexual sin. GOD forbid! ALL sexuality outside of marriage is sin. Heterosexual adultery and homosexuality are shown to be identical in weight (Lev. 20: 10, Lev. 20: 13). The ONLY sexuality that is NOT sinful is found in the marriage bed (Heb. 13: 4).

    Yet, there are many so-called Christian ministers who call homosexuals horrible names, and then proceed to joyfully preside over the weddings of divorced Christian heterosexual couples (Mark 10: 11-12). The man who calls a homosexual a nasty name, is the first guy to throw rice at that divorced heterosexuals wedding. I call that hypocrisy. What do you call it?

    None of this is to suggest that there wasn't any homosexuality in Sodom (there is homosexuality in every nation). The sins of Sodom are PRIDE and ARROGANCE as stated in Eze. 16. Thanks! latterrain77
     
  19. Dr. Bob

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    Appreciate the good responses. I assumed some would bring up the Genesis account that clearly shows both homosexual and heterosexual pornea rampant in Sodom. I assumed others would say it wasn't and that it is evil to call such people "sodomites".

    And so it goes, ya know. (yada, yada, yada as Seinfeld would say!) :rolleyes:
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    My dear, latterrain, it is quite obvious from your last post comments that you didn't really read what I posted as you made your reponse, or I wasn't clear in what I communicated. For that, I am sad. :(

    I will not argue with you over the meaning of the word "know." I will not argue with you over garish costumes of some "preachers" and their wives which has nothing to do with Sodom & Gomorrah.

    And I will not accept some convoluted theory about Sodom and Gomorrah which excuses homosexual behavior. You will believe what you believe.

    I will give you an A+ for using the well worn KJV and Strong's, however. [​IMG] Now, shall we debate over whose KVJ is the most worn, yours or mine? :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    PS: Mine's a Scofield. ;)
     

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