what Would be purpose For Church to go thru Great Tribulation Period?

Answers in bold

 

I kNow Some of the 144,000!

That's right...they come to my door once a month with their Watch Tower magazines and want me to become one of the 144,000. :wavey:

 

Great Tribulation Martyrs

Hello Hank,

MARTYRS GO THRU THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Those who go through the Great Tribulation include the Saints who "must be killed before God avenges their blood"! Rev.6:9-11.

The prayers of these Martyrs as to "how long they must wait" to be avenged will be answered "after the G.T." when Christ "raises up ALL
of these G.T. Martyrs who must wait until the last one appointed to die has been killed"!!

So why must Church Saints "endure to the END" per Rev.2:25-26?

They present their prayers to God in the 7th Seal which is JUST BEFORE Christ sends the angels to gather them out of the 4 winds globally.
He sends the angels to gather the Saints AFTER He raises every MARTYRED believer
on the last day...that is, ON the Day of God's Wrath in Seal Six!!!

The countless Martyred Saints who "come out from the G.T. are from every
nation, tongue and tribe"! Their prayers for revenge cannot be answered
until the last one "who must be killed has been killed"!! Those Saints who
"endure (survive) to the end will sit on thrones ruling the earth with Christ";
but the Martyrs will have three names and will "serve God in heaven" for 1000 years!!! Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17 and Rev.20:4-6.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

Mel, do you identify this event with the gathering of the wheat into His Barn in Matthew 13?

Thanks
HankD

 

You can't.

According to their message the 144K have all been chosen and will dwell in heaven with Christ.

The only hope you and I have (according to their belief) is to be awakened out of the sleep of death and be resurrected to live on the earth forever.
Presumably only those faithful to JW theology and "witnessing" for Jehovah in this life will have a chance to attain to this resurrection on earth.

Obviously you haven't paid attention to what they have been telling you.



HankD

 

Haven't had any come to me in a long time. The first thing I like to ask those who who come from the Watch Tower group is if they are one of 144,000 which one of the tribes of Israel were they born (physically) into. They don't like that question for some reason.

 

....and He did:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301

God has always provided a way of escape for the righteous.

25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

The entire Roman Empire was in great distress after the death of Nero.

For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

The above passage sheds light on Rev 2-3. Christ is first judging His church before bringing vengeance upon His enemies.

 

The problem you have is that the seige of Jerusalem did not effect the churches in Asia Minor to whom Revelation was sent. The only believers effected by the seige on Jerusalem was the church at Jerusalem. There was never as John Says a sign placed in the forhead or back of the hand of all the Roman Empire in order to purchase goods. The church was not taken from the world at that time as 1 Thessalonians 4 clearly states. When Jerusalem was destroyed Christ did come and set up the Davidic Kingdom and reign on earth in the Millinial as John tells us would happen, many of the Prophecy of the O.T. in Isaiah and Zecheriah as well as Daniel have yet to be fulfilled. The promise of not going through the hour of temptation was to all who hear the Soirits message to the churches, that would include us as we read and hear the messages to those churches.

 

Again:

"25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows;
26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

The entire Roman Empire was in great distress after the death of Nero.

For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

The above passage sheds light on Rev 2-3. Christ is first judging His church before bringing vengeance upon His enemies."

 

So are you saying Christ came and removed the church as 1 Thessalonians says and we are in a prolonged tribulation period today? Since 1 Thessalonians clearly states that those dead in Christ shall rise and we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air, this woul have occured in 70 A.D. so that the only event left to fulfill by what you are saying is the Great White Throne Judgement upon those at the end of His 1000 year reign upon the earth. But you aren't sying He is ruling on earth right now and yet John said that after the tribulation He would rule on earth with an earthly Kiongdom with Satan bound for a 1000 years, then the Great White Throne Judgement and the New Heaven and New Earth. So if He came in 70 A.D. then when did the Earhtly Kingdom end 1070 A.D. and we are living in New Jerusalem, this world we live is nothing like that described of the New Jerusalem. Something is missing in the 70 A.D. theory.

This would have to have occured in 70 A.D. for the preterist view to be true:
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

Continued:
Then in 1070 A.D. this would have occured:
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Which would put us here:
Revelation 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life

I don't believe we are living in that city right now, so to recap the theory of 70 A.D. as it has been being presented.

Christ returned and destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. and if we take Revelation as having an early date then the 7 years of tribulation occured immediately following that or was actually what was happening in 63 to 70 A.D.
Then with Christ return in 70 A.D. the events of Revelation 19 were culminated with the Beast being cast into the lack of Fire along with the False Prophet, Satan was in captivity for 1000 years while Christ was reigning in His Kingdom.
So in 1070 A.D. Satan was released for a season and mustered Gog and Magog and came against Christ, who put the revolt down. He then brought in the New Jerusalem which is now resting upon the New Earth and Christ is the Light of this new world and no sun exist for He isthe only light needed.
Which would mean we are actually living in theNew Jerusalem and the World events since 1070 were only metaphorical and in the minds of those of us in the New Jerusalem. We aren't shedding real tears when we cry because Christ has wiped them away.

That fairly well sumes up what you are saying with the 70 A.D. return.

 

If this is the New Jerusalem promised in scripture then I think we got a bum deal!
This view is so warped. Scripture teaches sin will be wiped away...so why do we still have preachers who visit prostitutes, view pornography, why do we still have murders and....well you name it, we've still got it. There is no way scripture could be interpreted to infer that THIS world, as it currently exists, could be in any way construed as the New Jerusalem...the new Heaven and new earth.

 

End of the Age Gathering

Hank, Thanks for the good question.

In each text, the gathering takes place at the "END of the Age".
While angels are "sent by Jesus to gather the elect upon the
four winds", having raised the dead FIRST, Jesus must "gather
these elect from the earth" before the angels "gather them out
of the 4 winds to meet Him in the air"...after the G.T. ends.

This puts the gathering of Mark 13:24-27 immediately prior to
that of Matt.24:29-31! Paul, "by these words of the Lord",
requires the "dead in Christ to rise first"!! That means ALL the
dead in Christ rise up first...which includes every G.T. Martyr;
for there is only one "first resurrection"!!!
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

The verses you show deal with the Tribulation and the Church as promised by Christ in Revelation 3:10 will not go through it, that is where 1 Thessalonians plays, the key verse in Mark that shows the split is 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
The beginning of sorrows is the beginning of the tribulation period. These first signs are what we need to look for, after that the Tribulation begins.

Many say Revelation 3:10 only applies to the Chrurchat Philedelphia but look at verse 13, 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Do you have and ear to hear what the Spirit saith to the Chruches, in other words do you hear the message given to those churches by the Spirit and understand what Christ expects from us to walk for Him. Therefore even verse 10 applies to what the Spirit saith to the churches and he says " 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" we keep His patience when we accept Christ.
So the promise is very clear the Church will not go through the Hour or Time or Age of Tempatation or Testing (i.e. the Tribulation). Christ makes it very clear the Church will be snatched away prior to the Tribulation beginning.
1 Thessaloninas 4, 1 Corinthians 15 both show we will be snatched away prior to the tribulation when the trump sounds, Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
John hears the call and when He sees heaven he sees 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Twenty four elders with their rewards and clothed in White raiment. If we look back at Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The Church believers are promised White raiment in Heaven, John sees that as 1 Corinthians 3 says we face the "BEMA" Judgement seat of Christ and it is in Heaven not on Earth as the Great White Throne Judgement is.

Scripture upon scripture dealing with the Church shows the literal snatching away prior to the Tribulation and way before the Great Tribulation.

 

The Hour of Trial

Mel's Response:
You take for granted that the "HOUR" of Trial is a period of years. But Jesus
limits the destruction of that HOUR to a single DAY...the "Day that will come
suddenly, like a thief, on all the inhabitants that dwell on all the earth". See
how Luke 21:34-36 identifies the Day Christ comes "after the G.T."

No Saint is appointed to God's wrath! That includes those who "endure to
the END"!! Those who "endure (survive) to the END are Church Saints"!!
That's according to the message to the Churches per Rev.2:25-26!!!
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net