What would Jesus do about man-made rules?

It is about context. You can't entirely separate 18 from the remainder of the chapter.

You won't find verses about cards and movies, you know that. You won't find verses against cannabis or opium either? Wanna meet up and smoke some dope?

(Now I am nervously waiting to see if some one on the BB comes along to defend drugs...)

All I am saying, as are a few others, that some rules are derived from principles, not specific Bible statements.

 

Then wouldn't we be better to state the principles, and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting...

IOWs... The principle behind not playing cards is the misuse of money...
So instead of saying "It is a sin to play cards" (which is too broad, and misleading) Let's say, "It is a sin to misuse money."

Instead of saying, "It is a sin for a woman to wear pants"... Go to the heart of the issue... which is modesty, and not pretending to be something God didn't create you to be...

Instead of saying, "Don't attend movies" (BTW, how do you attend movies... I watch them lol) Teach about the sin of Lust, violence, or anything that certain movies may promote....
Obviously, not all movies are bad.... But if we lay down the principles from the word of God, then the Holy Spirit will convict people's hearts when they want to see certain bad movies...

Instead of saying, "Don't Dance" Teach on lust.

I think it is better to teach the principles which are in Scripture, and let God convict each person.


And then questions to missionaries would be better..

How do you handle your money?
What do you do to avoid lust?
When was the last time you were a cross dresser?!!!! lol (couldn't resist)

 

So you don't eve make applications for your teaching when you preach?

 

I will. Everytime one goes to the dentist and chooses to be numbed before they are drilled, they receive an injection of a cocaine derivative (a drug).

Try having a tooth extracted without it.

Or having your appendix removed without anasthesia (more drugs).

Folks from previous ages died from infections which we routinely deal with using antibiotics (more drugs).

Folks with hypertension, heart arythmia, diabetes and a host of other diseases ingest powerful drugs daily.

OBTW, these drugs are controlled by "man made" laws.


HankD

 

I think you know the difference between addictive, entertainment based drugs and medicinal drugs.

The no-alcohol crowd won't like this, but Paul exhorted TImothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.

BUT, please, let's not let alcohol hijack this thread...

 

One of the best posts I have seen in a long, long time!

 

Tim, I might add that the practical result of your advice is people who can discern for themselves.
So often we do things with the rules as our standard and not Biblical principle.

I don't know how many times I have seen girls who would not wear pants be just as immodest and provocative as they could within the "rules" of not wearing pants.
They obeyed the "rule" and yet they totally missed the real point.

As for movies, how many families will refuse to see a movie at a theatre yet they will watch all of the same movies at home?
What sense does that make?

 

Exactly the point.

There is one NT principle which covers it all: Faith.

The just shall live by faith.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
​

If a man's faith allows or disallows certain kinds of card playing and certain kinds of movies who are we to criticize in the doing of these things?

Here is the danger of the liberty our faith allows us...

1 Corinthians 8

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Paul even suggests that sitting in the temple of an idol and eating the food thereof is allowable if we have strong faith.

It's not so much in the doing but the offending.

HankD​

 

I have to agree on that. There has been a set of rules that have floated around our church verbally for decades that are not written down in any church document, as far as I can tell have no Scriptural basis, and when you ask the older folks where they came from, the answer always comes back, "I dont know, thats the way its always been."

Those would include but not limited to depending on who you ask:
No dancing.
No cards.
No mixed swimming.
No lottery tickets (or any chance game)
Short hair for men, long hair for women.
No pants (although that one has gone by the wayside)
No stock market in the early last century

Others I cannot think of at the moment. The one exception to that which we have in the church covenant is the use of alcohol. At least that one has some basis. (Not a thread on use of alcohol).

What is almost amusing to me, is that while we make up all of these rules, we turn right around and ignore some things that are in the Bible, such as gluttony.(I am sure everyone here has been to pot lucks at church) and gossip. We turn the other way, ignore them, and even snicker at them.

It also seems odd that we ignore every monetary principle in the Bible, not only tithing, but going into debt, both personally and as a church. Not one word is said or spoken about that.

It also seems strange to see a group of people (in church) standing around flapping their jaws about this or that person's lifestyle, say living together, or adultry, and leave out of the conversation all the women that looked at this week and lusted after.

The bottom line is, that power to resist temptation and sin resides in the Holy Spirit living in you. It takes faith. Creating all the rules in the world that have no basis is not going to make you a better Christian, strengthen your faith, or get you to heaven.

What would Jesus do? You tell me. Probably stay out of a lot of Pharisee type Baptist churches.

 

I agree with your post with one point of exception.

The babes in Christ need guidelines. Just like our own children.

When we lived in Maine we burned wood for most of our heat.

We had several children and until they matured to a certain level they were not even allowed near the stoves. Later they were allowed to maintain the fire, etc.

Scripturally the strong are to watch over the weak and yes, they need rules (most of them self-imposed) until they have matured to a spiritual state and have discernment enough on their own to "live by faith".

They are Christs' and He will hold us accountable if we wound them with our liberty.

But if God's love is in our hearts then we should want to make whatever sacrifice we must to help them along the way.

Doesn't the pleasure of fellowship around Christ supercede whatever pleasures (even innocent) this world has to offer?


HankD

 

I agree. Just as there is nothing inherently sinful about printing words on paper (but there are plenty of sinful publications), so there is nothing inherently sinful about making films (sorry, "movies") (but there are plenty of movies which are full of sin). So watching a movie is not necessarily a sin.

The same sort of reasoning could be applied to the other examples.

Tiny Tim said: "Go to the heart of the issue." I am going to change those words slightly to: "The issue is the heart." It's not a cut-and-dried matter, like "If I go to the cinema, I must be sinning, and if I stay away from the cinema, I must be pleasing God." What about my heart? Why do I want to go? If it's to feed lustful passions, then it's wrong. Why do I want to stay away? If it is so I can boast in my heart, "I must be a better Christian than Brother X or Sister Y, because I never go to the cinema, and they do," that is equally wrong.

Perhaps the second half of 1 Samuel 16.7 is appropriate here:

For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.​

 

Agreed. It is a heart issue.
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I submit that it is not we who should examine our heart but to let God examine it. Search me oh God and see if there be any unclean thing in me.

I suppose that IF you can pray about the activity and know for certain that God would approve of your partaking in it then by all means go enjoy it.

That should settle the "man made rules" thing for the majority of us, shouldn't it?

 

OK. As has been said before. If you object then find someplace which will support you with which you can agree.

Methinks this is much ado about nothing.

 

It should.. but for some reason, some of us, me included, like it when others approve of us. So we do whatever it takes to keep their friendship.

So we abide by rules we don't agree are biblical to please others.

 

Sure, but I explain what the sin is behind the application...

 

I can understand an application or questionnaire coming from a board that one is applying to.
But, while we were on deputation there were a number of churches that wanted us to fill out a questionairre to make sure where we stood. I find this a needless and fruitless exercise. The prospective missionary gives a slide show (or power point nowadays) of his work. Then he preaches. By that alone one can usually discern much of where he stands. Either before or after that he ususally spends time with the pastor in fellowship where the pastor is able to interview him and find out more of his personal life. Sometimes he and his family are even put up by the church families for a couple days or so. They get to know the missionaries well.
Sometimes I will fill out such a questionaire, but often, not. I find that those people who demand one to fill out such an application are more likely than not to be divisive asking questions like:
1. Where do you stand on the KJV? (If you don't answer exactly as they want you to answer they won't support you).
2. Do you believe the KJV to be the inspired, infallible Word of God?
3. Are you a Calvinist? (How do you answer that one?)

In other words the questions are those that cause division among the brethren. One church supported me for a time, but when he found out that I wasn't a KJVO the pastor had the church drop my support. Such things are unfortunate. Another KJVO, wouldn't even have me preach in his church. Just as well, they wouldn't have supported me anyway. There is division among the brethren, and it stems from far greater issues than playing cards.

 

Much of what I have read on this thread are the old negative strands of fundamentalism and are pharisaical.

Let's face it, when a man of God cannot preach in another's pulpit because he uses the NIV rather than the KJV, what have we really come to?

When we get to heaven, we will find out that much of what we call "positions on that issue or this issue" had nothing to the with Christ and his teachings. They would all have proven to be man-made, which amounts to nothing.

But for now, we will have all forms and fragments of Christianity. The prayer of Jesus for true unity between believers will not be realized in this life. Let's face it! Being part of an association is not what true unity is all about. But it is a good start.