What would you say to this woman?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Jan 11, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

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    What would you say to this woman? (This is lengthy, I beg your indulgence.)

    What would you say to her?

    She goes on to say she has given up everything and lost much in material worth to follow Allah/Islam. She is correct on some of her political points, IMO. But I believe she is spiritually greatly deceived. [​IMG]

    So I ask you...

    Was she ever born again or did she lose her salvation?

    I am posting this under the Fair Usage Section of the copyright law, so am not posting a link. But there are many similar stories on the Internet since 09/11. Former Baptists / Christians turned to Islam.

    My intent in posting this is not to start a debate about Christianity vs Islam. Please do not derail this thread into that.

    What are Christians to do? Are we to pray for her? Are we to confront her in love? Are we to shake the dust from our feet?

    Thoughts? Comments?
     
  2. Caretaker

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    1 John 2:

    19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


    This woman did all of the Christian activities. She was the epitamy of Christian service and dedication. Of course this is her own testimony, and although baptised by Dr. Stanley:


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Quote:

    I was lucky enough to meet and be baptized by Dr. Charles Stanley, the founder of In Touch Ministries in Atlanta Georgia and a serious Christian who taught me how to embrace and live my faith. I studied the Bible intensely and spent long periods of time in prayer every day, I listened to tapes and lectures and worked every aspect of my religion . This had a tremendous effect on my life – my rough edges began to mellow, I championed a variety of humanitarian and church causes and I abandoned the cut throat business...to establish a new development company based on Christian principles. I learned the power of forgiveness, I knew there was a God who was active in my life and I knew that the purpose of life was to serve Him.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    What teachings was she studying, and she makes reference to a great many humanitarian causes. Did she know Jesus as God?

    Quotes:

    As most know, Christians believe in the Trinity; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is one of those things in Christianity that no one can explain; that merely has to be embraced on faith

    I consulted a variety of learned individuals and the answer was always the same “you need the power of the Holy Spirit in your life” and they would pack me on my way with some advice how to do that

    There was still one big problem as far as I was concerned and that was Christ, the Savior. Over a two week period, I research this whole matter extensively and it became very apparent that Christ could not be God and that God can not, by His very nature, have partners. No wonder I couldn’t get the power of the Holy Spirit – there isn’t one! If Christ is not God, this invalidates the entire Christian religion.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    It would appear that this woman did not have the heart faith in the first place, and although paying lip service to Christ, the Word of God/God the Word manifest in the flesh, was not dwelling in her heart nor as Lord of her life.

    1 John 2:
    22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    24: Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    25: And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  3. Brett

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    Regarding your last question, we as Christians must both pray for her and confront her in love. While she may be lost to the holy spirit right now, the powerful workings of the holy spirit will still convict her if Christians lay the foundation.

    Regarding to once-saved, always-saved question, I believe this is the fundamental problem with this belief. In this woman's case, it is easy for those believing in OSAS to just say that she was never saved, and thus her backslide into deception. But really, OSAS is truly unfalsifiable, as it is impossible for us to tell whether she was actually saved at one point or not. So short answer: I don't know whether she was saved at one point or not.
     
  4. Caretaker

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    I believe she was sincerely serving a generic "god" without ever having met the Master.


    2 Tim. 3:

    : This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth .


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I would present the Gospel to her from the Bible, and not from some lecture series or book from some wise sage of this age. I would then leave it in the hands of God to save her from her unbelief.

    She goes on to say she has given up everything and lost much in material worth to follow Allah/Islam. She is correct on some of her political points, IMO. But I believe she is spiritually greatly deceived. [​IMG] [/QUOTE]

    What political points did she make?

    So I ask you...

    Was she ever born again or did she lose her salvation?[/QUOTE]

    Did God save her? If he did, did he fail in her salvation? Can God fail? The answer to all three questions is obviously NO!!!!!!!!!

    I am posting this under the Fair Usage Section of the copyright law, so am not posting a link.[/QUOTE]

    I don't know if the BB rules really allow this, but that probably doesn't matter too much anyway.

    But there are many similar stories on the Internet since 09/11. Former Baptists / Christians turned to Islam.[/QUOTE]

    Former Baptists: YES
    Former Christians: NO!!!!!!!!!!!

    My intent in posting this is not to start a debate about Christianity vs Islam. Please do not derail this thread into that.

    What are Christians to do? Are we to pray for her? Are we to confront her in love? Are we to shake the dust from our feet?

    Thoughts? Comments?
    [/QUOTE]

    Pray for her. Present the true Gospel to her. Be her friend as Jesus was a friend to the lost. But also, shake the dust off your feet if she won't listen to reason. Pray to God to do the rest. In the end, his will is going to be done.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Helen

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    One of the things I both see and hear about over and over is the attempt of people to 'become Christian' on their own. Like this woman, they DO everything they can -- sort of having faith in their own faith rather than dying to self.

    From what she says of her Christian life, she was attempting to 'help God' and He doesn't need any help at all. He asks to live HIS life through us, not help us with 'our' lives. That is what dying to self and living for Christ means.

    Was she ever born again? I doubt it. Only God knows the heart, and she may be a sort of prodigal son, wandering far. On the other hand, if she had been serious about her prayer life, asking God for wisdom and help with her wrestlings rather than trying to work them out 'logically' for herself, she would have had NO doubt about the power of the Holy Spirit or the reality of Christ the Savior, our Creator and God.

    There is no reason we SHOULD understand the Trinity! It is beyond our frame of reference, and rightly so. For He is God and we are not. We can talk about the three parts of eggs and apples, or the three states of H20, but that is as close as we can come to getting any picture at all, and all of them fall incredibly short. At least I think so... :D

    What to say to her?

    Dear Friend, what makes sense to you and what the truth is are not necessarily the same. You have abandon the truth and chosen what your human mind can comprehend. Do you really think the human mind can comprehend the truth of God? Or should we simply accept His Truth as He has revealed it to us in Himself -- Jesus Christ?

    Everything depends on how she responds to the truth she has been presented -- Romans 1.

    She has preferred the lie. If she continues preferring the lie, she will be given over to it. But only God knows when that would be or if that has already occurred.

    There is a lovely little book called "They Found the Secret" which can be found here:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310240514/104-1701363-8536716?v=glance

    And it explains much more fully what I am trying to say. This woman tried to do it on her own, failed, and then, depending again on herself, switched faiths. God allows that choice, but it is heartbreaking to me that Stanley or anyone would baptize someone who is not truly dead to self and alive in Christ.

    Baptism does not make a Christian. Only God can make a Christian. And it is only God living in us and working through us that can cause us to live a Christian life.

    Yes, we will still sin, but if she had read 1 John, she would know about that....
     
  7. Daniel David

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    She is lost, has never been saved, and apparently has only been exposed to Christianity.

    Given Stanley's easy believism and cheap grace theory, it is no wonder why this person is so off base.
     
  8. mioque

    mioque
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    "But really, OSAS is truly unfalsifiable, as it is impossible for us to tell whether she was actually saved at one point or not."
    And that is the reason I personally think that OSAS is a for practical purposes completely useless doctrine.
     
  9. Precepts

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    She obviously believed in the charisma of Stanley.

    Easy believism is rooted in the charisma of the propigator, it is a false doctrine with it's deception in spiritism and not the Gospel.

    We are sent to preach the Gospel, not convince belief: God chose the "foolishness" of preaching to save them which believe. So many like to "preach" this unconditional gospel; w/o godly sorrow which leadeth to repentence.

    I avoided ever listening to CS for the specific reason of noticing his "refined" character and psycological mannerisms. I just pray others won't be so deceived by this type of charisma as is this woman so obviously. I came to this realization long before his marital distess and can't see how anyone contemplating a divorce could ever get any help from him now.

    I dealt with a lady for quite some time on a similar issue, she was involved with the "science fiction" cult; saying Jesus and all the angels are alien creatures and such, their name fails me right now. She got all involved with this "chemistry" of the injesting of certain foods to control all aspects of her life, mental, spiritual, and of course physiacl, but to her own hurt, denying the very staples of life. I lost contact with her a while back, her name is Donna. I can only pray for her to get saved, yes, saved, she fell prey to the charisma of a philosophy, just like the philosophy "Mr." Stanley propigates

    I know this is dangerous ground for me, because so many idolize him, but the truth is the truth!

    Thanks to "Caretaker" for propigating the truth!

    Please wake up to the truth people, and stop doting about unlearned questions.

    Nothing is as pure and simple as the Gospel: Simply sinners in need of the Saviour, with the ultimatum of a turning from sin to Him.
     
  10. Precepts

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    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

    You're entitled to your opinion, but it's w/o a sure foundation.

    OSAS is a fundamental of having blessed assurance and that due to faith in the keeping power of God/ omnipotence. Since w/o faith it is impossible to please God, your assumption is as unpleasing. Abraham had enough faith to believe God would preserve him until the Messiah come, he is called part of the "Firstfruits" of the Gospel, a friend of God. IOW, "Once preserved, always preserved"/ saved! God cannot lie, I can't fall out of the Hand that can't let me fall!

    Can you?
     
  11. mioque

    mioque
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    "Can you? "
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. Precepts

    Precepts
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    Not Biblically
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    Thanks, everyone, for your answers.

    What I did was email the above clip & link to CS with my following note:

    To which I received this simple & short reply:

    Thought those of you who posted on this thread might be interested. I believe it would be honorable to withhold my comments on the reply. If there are any followup remarks, I'll keep you posted. [​IMG]
     
  14. mioque

    mioque
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    QuickeningSpirit
    You're a Calvinist right? I'm not.
    I don't care about notions like 'blessed assurance'.
     
  15. Jill2778

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    I think a huge problem we cause today is trying to fit God into our minds. That is what it looks like she did, she tried to completely understand God, and in regards to the muslim faith, that is what she did.

    What people don't seem to understand is that while we are here on earth, we will never completely understand the Trinity, it is not comprehendable in regards to our limited understanding. It would be like us trying to make an ant understand what our name is. Can't happen.

    How can someone who is infinite, always was, always is and always will be fit in to the comprehension of someone who is finite?
     
  16. mioque

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    "How can someone who is infinite, always was, always is and always will be fit in to the comprehension of someone who is finite? "
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Caretaker

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    We could not properly reveal ourselves to the ants, unless we ourselves became an ant and walked among them....


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  18. Jill2778

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    Caretaker,

    Even some of Jesus followers when he came and walked among them did not understand, and turned away. The reality of God can never be fully comprehended by us finite beings in this lifetime. That is why we are to have faith!

    God bless!
     
  19. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Are people, by nature, people of faith, or people of the flesh and the world? If the latter, then where does the faith come from? Inside of us? I don't think so. I believe it comes from God.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  20. Jill2778

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    If OUR faith came from God, wouldn't that mean we really don't have free will? I believe that WE as humans must choose to believe and have faith. However, once we do, we seek God to strengthen our faith by His grace.
     

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