What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, May 1, 2007.

  1. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    If you reject the doctrine of Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption and rather believe that Jesus died for the sins of every person, outside of saying, "because the Bible tells me so", I am curious what is the point of believing that?
    Unbelievers are not affected in any positive way by Christ's death for sin, only believers, so why is important to interpret the Bible this way?
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I think they are positively effected in that they receive common grace and temporal salvation (1 tim 4:10). That does not affect limited atonement. That is a different issue.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog
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    Do you really need another reason besides "the Bible tells me so"?
     
  4. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I was thinking mostly eternal effects, but you are right in pointing out the temporary goodness afforded them.
     
  5. Isaiah40:28

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    Apparantly so.
     
  6. Brandon C. Jones

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    There are other atonement views that aren't penal substitution in the tradition with different reasons for rejecting limited atonement.
    Yet, people within the Reformed tradition who were hypothetical universalists, while not monolithic, wanted to affirm that Jesus paid the debt due every person. Larry's comment about common grace is also appropriate. Besides the Scriptural passages that seem to defend hypothetical universalism like 1 John 2:2, I also think that other passages that speak of Christ being all in all, triumphing over the powers, etc. support a view of atonement that extends beyond the limited atonement view. These passages of Scripture influenced the ancient theories of atonement that evangelicals (both "calvinists" and others) today usually just ignore. These passages warrant an atonement theory that is capacious in Christ conquering sin on a grand scale. These are some of the same reasons why I am not only a hypothetical universalist but also want a view of the atonement that isn't so flat.

    I'll put a link to an article by Tom Wright here. He addresses some UK in-house debates about penal substitution but his article is a good read (even if a little overstated sometimes).

    Here's the link: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/2007/20070423wright.cfm?doc=205

    I'm sorry if this post is disjointed and incoherent. It looks a little bit like it to me.
     
    #6 Brandon C. Jones, May 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2007
  7. Brother Bob

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    The point of Jesus dying for all is that all have a chance to be saved if they will "believe and repent". If the atonement was not for all then that point would of not been made. The atonement was made to God and for man to receive it, he must believe and repent.
     
  8. npetreley

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    Isn't it obvious? It's like any other theological viewpoint. All the pieces have to support each other. No universal atonement, and free will goes down the drain. You can't say you are saved because of your free will choice if salvation isn't "offered" to all. If salvation isn't offered to all, then the difference between you and the unsaved no longer hinges upon your "right" decision and their "wrong" one.
     
  9. Helen

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    I love good, concise responses that I agree with!

    Rebellion/sin is an affront to God. None of these will be left standing for eternity -- because Christ took care of them all. That is not salvation, however, but it does pave the way for it, as Brother Bob stated.
     
  10. Pipedude

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    If I'm witnessing to a bum on the street, I can say with no mental reservation "God loves you, Christ died for you." I can also tell my little children that.

    Someone who believes in particular redemption cannot honestly say those things to a bum, to unconverted children, or to anyone else. He can say "God loves sinners" (a few sinners, that is), but that's as far as it goes.

    His blood atoned for all our race
    And sprinkles now the throne of grace
     
  11. Rippon

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    PD , Spurgeon , Packer , Nettleton , Whitefield , Barnhouse , Barnard , Herman Hoeksema , Gill , Toplady , Pink and many more evangelists would not say that God loves everyone and that Christ died for everyone . Christ came to die for His people . He did not die for those He did not know . Those he does not know will be cast in the Lake of Fire .

    What an evangelist may say is that Christ , as Savior was the sacrifice for sinners . His sacrifice was complete and you need to avail yourself of it . There is no hope in anyone else to relieve you of your guilt and condemnation . Christ is the perfect Lamb of God . His Father , out of love , gave His only Son for sinners such as yourself -- today turn to Him -- this is the Day of Salvation .
     
  12. Isaiah40:28

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    I appreciate all the responses.
    This is what I was thinking and why I asked the question.
    In the end, if Jesus's sacrifice for sin is only applied to those who believe, then He really only took away the believer's sin. An unbeliever's sin is still counted against him and Jesus' death accomplished nothing for him, eternally speaking.
    Believing that God knows who will be saved, why would we believe that Jesus died for everyone, even those who God knows are not now, nor ever will be saved?
    What is the point of believing that Jesus died for people who will never believe and God has known it all along?
    This is what I don't understand about the non-Cal position.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    Maybe the answer to this question could be found in another question.

    What's the point of Jesus dying for anyone?
     
  14. Isaiah40:28

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    To ransom a people for God.
    Which people then?
    Everyone?
    Or those who have or will believe?
     
  15. Pipedude

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    He loves 'em, Isaiah. It's something you and Rippon and the vast pantheon of predestinarian purveyors just don't get, never have, and never will. Yet you WILL tell your unconverted children that God loves them, you'll teach them the songs that say he does, and you'll teach them to pray "Our Father."

    Why not tell them the truth? "God loves a few children, he hates most of them and created them for damnation, and we don't know yet which group you're in."

    "Nite-nite. God may or may not love you, but I sure do."
     
  16. Isaiah40:28

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    Strawman.
    Nice try.

    You didn't address the problems with the non-Cal view.
    Surprise, surprise.

    God creates persons who He knows will never believe.
    Why doesn't God only create believers?
     
  17. Blammo

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    Don't use the Bible? I guess I understand why you'd say that. (Too many verses that disprove limited atonement.)

    Were you born saved, or did you have to be born again at some point?
    If you were not born saved, the atonement did you no good 'til you believed, right?
    So, how can you argue that, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then all are saved?
    What about repentance, faith, and belief, are those conditions not necessary for the blood to be applied?

    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Romans 3:25-26 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    BTW, it is not a strawman argument to suggest you are lying to your children if you are not honest with them about what you really believe.
     
  18. Amy.G

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    Quote:
    Isaiah:
    As has been quoted many times, the Bible says that Jesus was the propitiation for the whole world.

    But, in order to receive the gift of salvation, which has already been purchased, you must believe.

    No one can stand before God and say "I didn't believe because You wouldn't let me". No, God will say "I made the way, you chose to reject it".
     
  19. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I certainly have no problems using the Bible, Blammo.
    But it's easy to say "the Bible tells me so" without engaging in the argument.

    The non-Cal position is based on a certain interpretation of several key passages, but what I asked does not come from exegeting one of those texts.

    However the question is still valid, if Jesus died for everyone, yet His sacrifice is only applied to believers, then why did Jesus die for those whom God foreknew would never believe?

    IOW, why did God need Jesus to die for the sins of every person, if not everyone will believe?

    We all believe that Jesus' death only counts for those who believe.
    Unbelievers, which of course, are not fully known until they die in their sins, are commanded to repent and believe until their dying breath. If they do repent, then Christ's death covers them. If they do not believe, then Christ's death does not cover them.
     
  20. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Who believes that?
    Actually in your view, God made the way, He foreknew who would reject it, and He created them anyway.
    Why didn't God only create believers?
     

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