What's with the statue of Peter in St. Peter’s Cathedral?

"neal4christ:"


"Sorry man, but the statue IS UGLY to me. I wouldn't want it in my home."
Full agreement.

"Of course I'd try to
sell it to someone who would offer me the highest amount (maybe ebay)."
have you never heard of Sotheby's?

"I like stain glass windows, though I feel Tiffany far excelled those of the Gothic period in both color and design."
That's very gay of you.

"The money was wasted on a chunk of rock that has no place in a church, though it might make a nice
tombstone. "
This statue we are debating is cast out of bronze not cut out of rock.

"You may not like my OPINION but then I DON'T like the STATUE. It certainly doen't look like a fisher of men (or of fish for that matter)."
It isn't supposed to do that, it's supposed to look like a wise and regal saint holding a very important key who is saying important stuff.

"I guess if YOUR church was deciding between a new furnace, a new roof, or a dumb statue, you'd opt for the chunk of rock."
Said the one independant fundamentalist to the other.
Actually I would go for the comfy chairs myself.

"I might add that I don't dislike gothic and renaissance art. I do dislke pretentious art, and I pick and choose. I am also not fond of attitudes that suggest that one doesn't call the emperior's new clothes as one sees them... "
I'm an art-historian, being snooty is what I do.

You do realize that this is the first post of yours on this board that I have read where you aren't being either smug or angry throughout the whole thing.

 

mioque, don't ever leave our little hovel here! It would be a much poorer place if you did!

 

I second that!!

 

I will be watching for it and will be interested to see if having that added historic text alters your views - at all.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Bob never met a lie about the Catholic Church that he didn't like and if anyone exposes his biggotry, well since Bob is infallible they are naturally wrong. Ya right.

 

Fascinating. And what about "Vaticano Illustrato II" ?? Where you "able" to find it?

Or will the "void of what you did not find" suffice?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am not a Catholic, but a Baptist, and we don't have statues in our church.

I don't care if it your opinion, you just need to have a little tact to not be unnecessarily offensive. You can express you opinions in a manner that does not come across as rude, inconsiderate, mocking, and arrogant.

In Christ,
Neal

 

"Fascinating. And what about "Vaticano Illustrato II" ?? Where you "able" to find it?"
Still 2 candidates to go.

 

neal4Christ:

Was Jesus considered tactful by the Pharisees & the Sadducees.

mioque:

I was as art student in college and had 2 years of art history. I am not intimidated by movie or
art critics. I find that MOST don't know what they are talking about. My proof would be the quality of both art and movies that receive critical acclaimed today.

The throne on which that bronze on steroids is sitting is marble. And there are lots of bronze plaques in many cemetaries. And I was making a joke about ebay. Maybe I'd roll the thing onto the Antiques Roadshow...

The reason I sound angry is because I hear people going to A church and their ONLY reason seems to be, not to worship GOD or not to hear the WORD,
but that it is the "correct" church. No matter what they say or do or how they act or how they spend money--------they go to the "correct" church.

People GO TO HELL DAILY because of such a belief.
And Jesus made the same case of the Pharisees.

 

Just a few questions for you:

Are you calling me a Pharisee or a Sadducee?

Are you calling all Catholics Pharisees or Sadducees?

How am I or Catholics like the Pharisees or Sadducees?

Are you Jesus?

Thanks in advance.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Okay, so why do you single out Catholics? Many non-Catholics have this attitude that you are describing. But not everyone. It is the same with Catholics. There are some here that go for the right reason, to worship Almighty God through his son, Jesus Christ. I look forward to see how such as these are like Pharisees or Sadducees.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Dear Bob,

While Mioque is trying to run down the "Vaticano Illustrato II" for you, would you be willing to share your own research with us? Do you have a copy of the "V.I. II" on your shelf at home, or are you relying on someone else's citation of it?

Like Mioque, I've unleashed the awesome power of the Internet, and found two citations of the "V.I. II" -- both contained in the writings of a gentleman named David Allen Rivera. (One is in a lengthy piece called "Final Warning: A History of the New World Order," the other is in a shorter article called "Controlled by the Calendar: The Pagan Origins of Our Major Holidays").

Is Mr. Rivera your source? If not, who is?

Many thanks,

Mark H.

 

neal4Christ:

Actually, I was rather disappointed with you with regards to this pretentious religious statue. It represents alot of what WAS and still IS wrong with the Vatican. I see NO difference in rubbing the foot of a statue of a figure of a man suppose
to be Peter and rubbing the tummy of a statue of Buddha.

Catholics hang out on this web-site. Perhaps they might be driven to study something other then Catholic DOGMA issued by a pope. Perhaps they may read about some of the fervent men and women of GOD who were martyred by an evil authoritatize church government of which they support and promote.

I feel that their issues are really no different than that of the Mormons. They both believe that the CHURCH is resting on the shoulders of a MAN, be he pope or prophet. They both have their traditions that they hold in very high regard and they both place the inerrantcy of GOD's HOLY WORD beneath the ADDITIONAL writings and traditions that they in fact promote. They both twist history and scripture to suit their warped values.

My father was raised Roman Catholic and I watched and listened as he attempted to witness to his own mother who always said, "I go to church EVERY Sunday, I go to confession regularly, I take the blessed sacrament--------so I'm fine." I may add that I had a 3 hour discussion with relatives in the midwest about their mormonism-----they gave the same sort of answers. They both do what their church tells them and that make everything OK. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What arrogance. You presume alot. MANY of us Catholics are adult converts.

We grew up in non-Catholic Churches and we KNOW the other side of things. We grew up studying everything opposed to Catholicism.

Your whole basis for making that comment is without foundation.

We KNOW your side of things and we REJECT it.


LaRae

 

What are you disappointed about? Because I said you had a poor attitude??? I really haven't said a word about the statue, so I don't know why you are disappointed.

Funny....I believe some of the reformers had the same sort of problem.

I am glad you shared how you feel, but what is the truth of the matter?

Untrue.

Untrue.

Untrue as far as I can tell. Do you have proof of this? I know many Protestants do this sort of thing.

I am glad you shared your personal experiences. But I know Baptists, Methodists, etc. who do the same thing you are talking about here. It is not just Catholics. Yet, for some reason, you conveniently ignore that fact. Come on, don't make you personal experiences the test for truth or the norm. Unless, of course, you are infallible.

In Christ,
Neal

 

LaRae:

I must assume that you attended a Roman Catholic church, and that you heard a sermon that pulled on those heart-strings, and you were convicted of the terrible sinner you are and were headed to HELL because you thought that being good was enough? The priest presented the Gospel message in a way you never understood before? You finally turned your life fully over to the Lord Jesus Christ and know His Word to be trustworthy?

Were you a United Methodist? Many (not all) these churches have gone modern. They started to think the WORD od GOD might be in error about some things----creation, the Flood, Tower of Babel, Moses, etc. That is ALWAYS where it starts.

Were you a Lutheran? Those NOT of the Missouri Synod are in the same boat. They start to question the WORD of God and move into the world of if it feels good then it must be of GOD....

Oh, maybe you were a UNITARIAN------OH BROTHER. They think the BIBLE is totally a story and Jesus is a nice example of a fine person. Let's all feel good about everything. Everyone is going to a good place---give us a kiss...

Moravian----they have a fine history and that's where it all ends...

Oh, perhaps you were a Anglican. ALL pomp and circumstance. The monarch of England is their head. They are in the same boat with the Catholics and now they are being called to decide if its all show or a REAL faith.... Maybe they'll
put their pants back on.

NOW as for you MR. neal4christ, I would wonder what would make anyone use lower case for Christ. Statues are Idols, and bad attitude or NOT, they don't please GOD. ANYONE who would think they do is a MATERIALIST and may be stuck in a HUMANISTIC mindset that says GOD can't live without me or MY WORKS----that's why He made ME.

THE CATHOLIC church believes that the Old Testament is MOSTLY allegorical----FACT

THE CATHOLIC church believes Mary is capable of things that do NOT appear in the Holy Bible----FACT

I know of NO ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH that doesn't have IDOLS----marble, plaster, or plastic!

You are either a CHRISTIAN and THAT makes you a part of Christ's CHURCH or you are unsaved and there is a whole list of happy, good feeling places to attend--------see the above.

I might add that Baptists as a group are slowly slipping into the very same good feelings, the service is all about me, attitude. Glad I know that salvation comes from faith in GOD through CHRIST and not ANY OLD church.

 

Give me a break. Is that all you can say? When all else fails, attack the person, right?

No, statues are not idols. If it is not worshiped as a god, it is not an idol. Is a statue of Abe Lincoln an idol? And are bad attitudes pleasing to God?

What in the world are you talking about? Please show me one place anyone here, or even the Catholic Church itself, believes or says such a thing.

Really. Mostly allegorical. Interesting. But why are you saying this? I have not addressed anything to do with this. (By the way, I don't think your assertion is correct.)

Okay. I don't believe what they do about her, but do you believe in the Trinity? Where is that? Or do you ever give someone a tract? Where is that? Do you take the great commission personally? Why? Where are you mentioned? Need I go farther? Just because it is not explicitly stated in Scripture does not mean it is necessarily untrue. If so, most of history is not true.

Okay, according to your definition of an idol. However, your definition is very suspect, and I definitely do not agree with it. Do you have anything more than your personal opinion?

Yes, I saw all the authoritative judging you do. Please, tell me, where is Christ's church, since you seem to know the secret location. However, if Christians model your attitude, I think I may avoid your church. Sorry, but I can do without the unloving, self-righteous, hatred of others.

Where do you get this stuff? Every denomination has this problem! By the way, if the service being all about the person is your test, the Catholics don't have this problem. It is not all about them. The ones that go just to go through the emotions probably don't really enjoy the services. And I am glad we share something in common, that salvation does not come from an old church, but through Jesus Christ alone.

God bless you!
In Christ,
Neal

 

Your assumptions are digging your hole deeper. Humility is a good tool, perhaps you should study that a bit more.

Your projections as to why I converted are equally in error. If you want to know WHY I converted you need simply to ask.

I was raised in the Assembly of God Church and in a Christian home. My mother's family is AoG/Church of Christ and Baptist. My father's family were and still are, predominately Primitive Baptist.


LaRae

 

Also, A_Christian, could you answer my questions about concerning Pharisees/Sadducees? You kind of dropped that line of discussion and started flinging other accusations. Let's get the first ones cleared up first.

In Christ,
Neal

 

neal4Christ:

You have been attacking me personally. Don't dish it out if you cannot take it (a quote of my dad).

I wasn't calling you either a pharasee or a saducee. I was ONLY pointing out that Jesus didn't beat around anyone's bush and He was clearly depised for what he said.

LaRae:

Oh, I did forget the Assembly of God churches. They like to base salvation on feelings and speaking in tougues. If they feel bad or cannot gibber, they think they must have LOST their salvation. And if you hung around with anyone who played with snakes, well no wonder you might be at a total loss.

So now you like statues of saints, glass Buddhist prayer beads that come with vain repetitions and a
cozy feeling that you're going to the "right" church, where "Papa" rationalizes everything for you, and if the pope is wrong, well a nice GOD would never hold you accountable...

I tell you this, that the churches Paul visited were nothing like the one that evolved years later. Oh, that one church may have used the same buildings; however, buildings don't make the
CHURCH. And buildings and statues are not what Peter or Paul preached to.