What's wrong with "bishop" and "bishopric"? Nothing!

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Will J. Kinney, Jun 26, 2009.

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  1. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    BISHOPS

    Is the word “bishop” a bad translation in the King James Bible?

    Bible correctors come in every stripe and flavor. Not one of them believes there exists a Bible composed of 66 books including both the Old and New Testaments in ANY language (including their never identified, nebulous and ever changing “the Greek and Hebrew”) that IS the complete and inerrant words of God.

    We live in the days of apostasy, much like in the time of the Judges, where it is recorded: “In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” Judges 21:25. Every Bible corrector thinks he’s an expert and yet not one of them agrees with anybody else as to what should be in “The Bible” and what should be omitted.

    Such is the case with the word “bishop” as found not only in the King James Bible, but in many others as well. Why do they object to the word “bishop”? Some think it implies a hierarchy of church authority and make reference to the fact that we are all priests before God and nobody is “above” anybody else.

    This argument is much in keeping with the spirit of our apostate age which casts off all authority and screams for their “rights” to be an independent, self-directed, “rugged” individual who is not going to let anybody else tell him what to do. It also displays a self-willed ignorance of the whole council of God as found in His precious words.

    Like it or not, there is an office of a bishop, elder, presbyter and pastor (all of which are Biblically the same thing), and they do have a role of authority in teaching correct doctrine, guarding against false teachers, feeding the flock and maintaining church discipline.

    Look at every reference to the elders, bishops, presbyters and pastor, and you will see that every New Testament church had a plurality of leadership. The modern day idea and practice of a single “pastor” presiding over a local church body of believers is no where to be found in the Scriptures.

    Each local church had a plurality of elders or overseers. The word “elder” implies that they were generally older and more experienced mature men. “Overseers” brings out the aspect of watching over the flock to keep them safe from false teachers and wolves in sheep’s clothing. The “bishop” is the more literal word coming directly from the Greek New Testament and it means “to watch over” another. The “pastors” (which by the way is found only one time in the entire New Testament, and it’s in the plural and not the singular - Ephesians 4:11-12) were given by Christ to “feed” His church and protect God’s people.

    “Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.” 1 Timothy 5:17

    “Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.” Hebrews 13:7

    “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” Hebrews 13:17

    “And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you: And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.” 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13

    “The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder...Feed the church of God which is among you, taking the oversight, not by constraint, but willingly...” 1 Peter 5:1-2

    Notice that the “elders”, “bishops” and “overseers” are all the same office and position in the local church, and there was always a plurality of elders or bishops, not a single individual.

    In Acts 20 we read: “And from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called for THE ELDERS of the church. And when they were come to him he said...Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock of God, OVER THE WHICH the Holy Ghost hath made you OVERSEERS (Greek -episkopos = bishops), to FEED the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

    “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with THE BISHOPS and deacons: Grace unto you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:1-2.

    Notice again that a “bishop” and an “elder” are the same office. The apostle Paul writes to his fellow helper Titus, and instructs him in the following way:

    “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I had appointed thee...For a BISHOP must be blameless, as the steward of God...” Titus 1:5-7.

    The Greek word from which we directly get our English word “bishop” is episkopos and is found only five times in the entire New Testament. Four times the King James Bible translates it as “bishop” (three of which refer to men) and one time as “overseers” (Acts 20:28). One time the word Bishop refers to Christ Himself as “the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls” - 1 Peter 2:25

    We also have the almost exact same Greek word episkope and it is translated as “the office of a bishop” and “bishoprick” (Acts 1:20). The word bishoprick is not at all archaic. By the way, the office of a bishop is called an “office” in the Bible. “If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.” I Timothy 3:1. There is also the office of a deacon - See 1 Timothy 3:10, 13.

    I mention this fact because I ran into an anti-King James Bible poster who was ranting against the KJB’s use of the word “bishop” and how they translated Acts 1:20 as “bishoprick.

    You can clearly see his rabid, unreasoning disdain for the King James Bible as he almost foams at the mouth saying: “Please follow closely: Acts 1:20... and His BISHOPRIC let another take. Okay, now read this one: Psalm 109:8 ... and let another take his OFFICE. Now, as far as I can tell, OFFICE is not the same thing as BISHOPRIC, unless you are an Anglican. It is supposed to be a direct quote. Also, I don't like the way the KJV translators altered what the text said in Psalm 109:8. Under what authority (besides the queer king's) did the translators have to CHANGE God's word? What is different is not the same, we are all told by the KJVO crowd. Now, are there any KJVO Baptists who agree with this translation?.” -Originally posted by Daniel David.

    Well, Daniel. Yes, the bishopric IS an office. If you knew your Bible a little better and how to use the English language, you would know that a “bishopric” (or bishoprick) is defined as the position, authority, office or rank of a bishop. Just look it up in any good English dictionary.

    Those like Daniel and others out there who think it is their sacred duty to criticize and “correct” the King James Bible apparently are unaware of how many other Bible translations also use the words “bishop” and “bishopric”. The following is a list of Bible translations, both before and after the King James Bible, that use the word “bishop”.

    Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Bishops’ Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1560 - 1602, Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley’s N.T. 1755, the Revised Version 1881, Webster’s 1833, the American Standard Version 1901, the Revised Standard Version 1952, 1973, the Bible in Basic English 1960, the Berkeley Version Modern Language Bible 1969, the New King James Version 1982, the New Revised Standard Version 1989, the Revised English Version 1989, the Amplified version 1987, the 21st Century KJV 1994 and the Third Millenium Bible 1998.

    Among foreign language versions that also read “bishop” in the various N.T. passages are Martin Luther’s German bible 1545 “Bischof”, the French Martin 1744, the French Ostervald 1996, the Spanish Reina Valera 1909, 1960 and 1995 “los obispos”, the Portuguese Almeida “obispo”, and the Italian Diodati 1649 and the New Diodati 1991.

    Many modern English versions have omitted the English word bishop. These include the ESV, NASB, NIV and Holman Standad. Daniel Wallace’s NET version translates the Greek word episkopos as “overseer” in 1 Timothy 3:2 but still he has the honesty to footnote: “or bishop”

    Other Bible translations that have Acts 1:20 reading: “...and his bishoprick (bishopric) let another take.” are Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops’ Bible, Webster’s, the Douay-Rheims, the 21st Century KJV, the Third Millenium Bible 1998 and the Spanish Reina Valera 1909 - “Tome otro su obispado.”

    Actually, the Hebrew word translated as "office" in Psalm 109:8 is also translated as "oversight" - Numbers 3:32; 4:16 (which is the literal meaning of the Greek and English word used in the King James Bible), as well as "visitation" (again matching the King James Bible translation in the N.T.) Officers, office, custody, and charge - "them that have charge over the city".


    The word “bishop” is a perfectly accurate translation of the very Greek word this English word comes from. The King James Bible is God’s providential Book and you will never overthrow it. The problem with the Bible correctors is that they do not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS today the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God. So they see themselves as being free to tinker with, alter, change, re-do, criticize and correct any bible or any texts (and ESPECIALLY those of the King James Holy Bible) anytime it seems “right in their own eyes”. - Judges 21:25

    By the grace and mercy of God, still believing the Book,

    Will Kinney
     
    #1 Will J. Kinney, Jun 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2009
  2. pilgrim2009

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    Greetings in Jesus Brother Will.

    I have been a fan of yours for a few years.I believe you will receive a Crown prepared for you for defending His Word.I pray God`s blessing on you Brother.

    In Jesus.

    Steven.
     
  3. RAdam

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    The idea that we should throw a word out because it has been abused by some is ridiculous at best.
     
  4. Mexdeaf

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    The idea that we should keep a word just because it was good back in 1611 is ridiculous also.
     
  5. RAdam

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    Uh, I wasn't arguing for or against the KJV there. I was saying that because bishop has been abused by some isn't reason to throw it out. For instance, some say baptism is sprinkling. I believe the scriptures are clear in that true baptism is by immersion. Now, should we throw out the words baptism and baptist because of misunderstanding, abuse, and misapplication? Of course not.
     
  6. Mexdeaf

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    Ok, please pardon my misunderstanding of your intentions. I still stand by what I said, though.
     
  7. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    What's wrong with "bishop"

    Hi brother Steven. Thank you for the words of encouragement. Some like what I write defending the inerrancy of The Book and others absolutely hate it. I must be on to something good:smilewinkgrin:

    Praise God for His precious words of 100% truth and grace as found only in the King James Holy Bible.

    "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15

    Accepted in the Beloved,

    Will K
     
  8. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    bishops


    Amen! Maybe the modern versionists want us to get rid of those nasty words like "damn" and "hell" too. O wait! I almost forgot. They already are working on taking those word out too.:laugh:

    All of grace,

    Will K
     
  9. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    God's 100% true Holy Bible


    Helloooooo? Is any body home?

    Did you actually read the article?

    Will K
     
  10. Mexdeaf

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    I wasn't responding to you. I already know that it is a waste of time from our attempted interaction in other venues.
     
  11. jonathan.borland

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    Don't the earliest and best manuscripts say, "He who has ears, let him hear?"
     
  12. Deacon

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    I've taken some liberties...

    OVERSEERS

    Is the word “overseer” a bad translation in Today’s New International Version?

    Bible correctors come in every stripe and flavor. Not one of them believes there exists a Bible composed of 66 books including both the Old and New Testaments in ANY language (including their never identified, nebulous and ever changing “the Greek and Hebrew”) that IS the complete and inerrant words of God.

    We live in the days of apostasy, much like in the time of the Judges, where it is recorded: “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.” Judges 21:25. Every Bible corrector thinks he’s an expert and yet not one of them agrees with anybody else as to what should be in “The Bible” and what should be omitted.

    Such is the case with the word “overseer” as found not only in Today’s New International Version, but in many others as well. Why do they object to the word “overseer”? Some think it implies a hierarchy of church authority and make reference to the fact that we are all priests before God and nobody is “above” anybody else.

    This argument is much in keeping with the spirit of our apostate age which casts off all authority and screams for their “rights” to be an independent, self-directed, “rugged” individual who is not going to let anybody else tell him what to do. It also displays a self-willed ignorance of the whole council of God as found in His precious words.

    Like it or not, there are overseers, elders, presbyters and pastors (all of which are Biblically the same thing), and they do have a role of authority in teaching correct doctrine, guarding against false teachers, feeding the flock and maintaining church discipline.

    Look at every reference to the elders, overseers, presbyters and pastor, and you will see that every New Testament church had a plurality of leadership. The modern day idea and practice of a single “pastor” presiding over a local church body of believers is no where to be found in the Scriptures.

    Each local church had a plurality of elders or overseers. The word “elder” implies that they were generally older and more experienced mature men. “Overseers” brings out the aspect of watching over the flock to keep them safe from false teachers and wolves in sheep’s clothing. The “overseer” is the more literal word coming directly from the Greek New Testament and it means “to watch over” another. The “pastors” (which by the way is found only one time in the entire New Testament, and it’s in the plural and not the singular - Ephesians 4:11-12) were given by Christ to “feed” His church and protect God’s people.

    “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.” 1 Timothy 5:17 TNIV

    “Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.” Hebrews 13:7 TNIV

    “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.” Hebrews 13:17 TNIV

    "Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, to acknowledge those who work hard among you, who care for you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other." 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 TNIV

    “To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;” 1 Peter 5:1-2 TNIV

    Notice that the “elders”, “leaders” and “overseers” are all the same office and position in the local church, and there was always a plurality of elders or leaders, not a single individual.

    In Acts 20 we read: “From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church.
    When they arrived, he said to them: … Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.” (Greek - episkopos = overseer, leader) “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”

    “Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Philippians 1:1-2 TNIV

    Notice again that a “leader” and an “overseer” are the same office. The apostle Paul writes to his fellow helper Titus, and instructs him in the following way:

    “The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Titus 1:5-7 TNIV

    The Greek word from which we directly get our English word “overseer” is episkopos and is found only five times in the entire New Testament. Four times the King James Bible translates it as “bishop” (three of which refer to men) and one time as “overseers” (Acts 20:28). One time the word Overseer refers to Christ Himself as “For “the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls" 1 Peter 2:25 TNIV

    We also have the almost exact same Greek word episkope and it is translated as “leadership” (Acts 1:20). The word leadership is not at all archaic. [By the way, the position of an overseer is not an “office” in the Bible.] “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.” 1 Timothy 3:1 TNIV
    The same applies to a deacon - See 1 Timothy 3:10, 13.

    I mention this fact because I ran into an anti-Today’s New International Version poster who was ranting against the TNIV’s use of the word “overseer” and how they translated Acts 1:20 as “leadership”.

    You can clearly see his rabid, unreasoning disdain for Today’s New International Version as he almost foams at the mouth saying: “Please follow closely: Acts 1:20... “May another take his place of leadership”. Okay, now read this one: Psalm 109:8 ... “may another take his place of leadership.” Psalm 109:8 TNIV

    Now, as far as I can tell, OFFICE is not the same thing as a BISHOPRIC, unless you are an Anglican. It is supposed to be a direct quote. Also, I don't like the way the KJV translators altered what the text said in Psalm 109:8. Under what authority (besides the queer king's) did the translators have to CHANGE God's word? What is different is not the same, we are all told by the KJVO crowd. Now, are there any KJVO Baptists who agree with this translation?.” -Originally posted by Daniel David.

    Well, Daniel. Yes, the leaders do have offices. If you knew your Bible a little better and how to use the English language, you would know that “leadership” (or leaders) are defined as a position, an authority, an overseer sometimes they even have offices. Just look it up in any good English dictionary.

    Those others out there who think it is their sacred duty to criticize and “correct” Today’s New International Version apparently are unaware of how many other Bible translations also use the words “leader” and “overseer”. The following is a list of Bible translations, that use the word “overseer”.

    AV, Darby, ESV, HCSB, ISV, NASB, NCV, NET, Newberry Interlinear, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, RSV, Wuest, YLT (and many, many more)

    Actually, the Hebrew word translated as "leadership" in Psalm 109:8 is also translated as "leader" in Numbers 3:32; [and “in charge”] 4:16 (which is the literal meaning of the Greek and English word used in Today’s New International Version), as well as "leader" (matching the “leader” translation in the N.T.) "The chief leader of the Levites was Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest. He was appointed over those who were responsible for the care of the sanctuary.” Numbers 3:32 TNIV


    The word “overseer” is a perfectly accurate translation of the very Greek word this English word comes from. The Today’s New International Version is God’s providential Book and you will never overthrow it. The problem with the Bible correctors is that they do not believe that ANY Bible in ANY language IS today the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God. So they see themselves as being free to tinker with, alter, change, re-do, criticize and correct any bible or any texts (and ESPECIALLY those of Today’s New International Version) anytime it seems “everyone did as they saw fit.” Judges 21:25 TNIV

    ***********************

    Any problems Will?

    Rob
     
    #12 Deacon, Jun 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2009
  13. sag38

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    Good job deacon. This thread started out with an obvious agenda. I've never heard the deragotory term "Bible Corrector" used before. Made me chuckle. Funny, my KJV Study Bible produced by Nelson has antiquated words numbered. You can find that corresponding number in center of the text where the words are explained. Using correctors' logic I guess the Nelson KJV Study Bible should not be called a study Bible but the KJV Bible Corrected Bible.
     
    #13 sag38, Jun 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2009
  14. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    What's wrong with "bishop"? Nothing!

    Judging by your name tag, I think I would have to agree with you.

    Happy trails,

    Will K
     
  15. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Don't the earliest mss say...?

    Close enuf! Even a broke clock is right twice a day. It's all that other junk that's added to them and all those inspired and true words of God that are missing from these "earliest and best" mss. that you should be worried about.

    Will K
     
  16. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    bishops, overseers and other goodies

    No problem, Rob. Even the true Bible has the word "overseer" in it. The problem comes about when the "No Bible IS the inspired and inerrant words of God" crowd starts criticizing the true Bible or trying to put some inferior bogus bible in its place that we have a problem to hash over.

    Will K
     
  17. Deacon

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    I think you will find (and I'm sure you already know) that most of those here on the BaptistBoard believe that God's inspired word is accurately translated in a great variety of versions.

    Rob
     
  18. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    "Bible Correctors" are good for a laugh

    Hi sag. Yes, you might well say that there is an "agenda" involved in the initial post. It's to defend The Book. More specifically it's called the King James Holy Bible by those who believe it to be the only true, complete, inspired and 100% true and inerrant words of the living God.

    The other part of this "agenda" is to expose all those who dare tamper with its pages as being Bible agnostics - they don't know what the true Bible might be nor where to find it. Are you a Bible agnostic, sag?

    Will K
     
  19. pilgrim2009

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    Nkjv

    NKJV Omissions

    LORD 66 Times

    GOD 51 Times

    HEAVEN 50 Times

    REPENT 44 Times

    BLOOD 23 Times

    HELL 22 Times

    JEHOVAH...... ENTIRELY

    NEW TESTAMENT .....ENTIRELY

    DAMNATION......... ENTIRELY

    DEVILS....ENTIRELY

    NKJV Ignored the KJV Textus Receptus over 1200 times.

    A fruit is known by how many ripe fruits it has.The NKJV is lacking terribly.

    In Jesus.

    Steven.
     
  20. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    God's inspired words?


    Well, this may come as a shocker to you, but this vague, fence sitting, non-committal definition of where to find "God's inspired words in a great variety of versions" does not surprise me in the least.

    Would you mind telling us which of these "variety of versions" is representative of your "accurately translated God inspired words"? If it's too much for you to deal with, then just pick one or two examples and let us know which readings you think are accurately translated. OK? Thanks.

    “MEANINGLESS and PICKY DETAILS”?

    The following short list is just a sampling of the divergent and confusing readings found among the contradictory modern bible versions. There are numerous other examples. Among these “details” are whether Jeremiah 27:1 reads Jehoiakim (Hebrew texts, RV,ASV, NKJV, KJB) or Zedekiah (NIV, NASB); whether 2 Samuel 21:8 reads Michal (Hebrew texts, KJB,NKJV, RV,ASV) or Merab (NIV,NASB), or 70 (NASB, NKJV, RV, ASV,KJB) being sent out by the Lord Jesus in Luke 10:1 or 72 (NIV), or the 7th day in Judges 14:15 (KJB, NKJV, RV, ASV) or the 4th day (NASB, NIV), or God smiting 50,070 men in 1 Samuel 6:19 (KJB, RV,ASV,NASB) or 70 men slain (NIV, RSV), or there being 30,000 chariots in 1 Samuel 13:5 (KJB, NKJV, RV, ASV, NASB, ESV) or only 3000 (NIV, & Holman), or 1 Samuel 13:1 reading - ONE/TWO years (NKJV, KJB, Geneva,Judaica Press Tanach), or 40/32 (NASB 1972-77) or 30/42 (NASB 1995, NIV), or _____years and.______and two years (RSV, ESV); 2 Samuel 15:7 “forty years” (Hebrew, Geneva, NKJV, NASB, RV) OR “four years” (NIV,RSV, ESV,NET), or whether both 2 Samuel 23:18 and 1 Chronicles 11:20 read THREE (Hebrew texts, RV, ASV, NKJV, NIV, NET, Holman or THIRTY from the Syriac NASB, RSV, ESV), or 2 Samuel 24:13 reading SEVEN years (Hebrew, ASV, NASB, NKJV) or THREE years (LXX, NIV, RSV, ESV) or the fine linen being the “righteousness” of saints or the fine linen being the “righteous acts” of the saints in Revelation 19:8, or where 2 Chronicles 36:9 reads that Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign (Hebrew texts, NASB, NKJV, RV,ASV,KJB, ESV) or he was 18 years old (NIV), or that when God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead it is stated in Acts 13:33 “this day have I begotten thee” (KJB, NASB, NKJV,RV, ESV) or “today I have become your Father” (NIV).


    Will the "accurately translated God inspired words" please stand up!

    Will K
     
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