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What's wrong with BJU?

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by samarelda, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. Palmetto Boy

    Palmetto Boy New Member

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    Wow Paul. That's quite a statement. Your line of argument has a certain appeal, but if you are going to fairly evaluate BJU can you continue to insist on using your caricatured picture of secondary separation as a standard? If you reject binary secondary separation, then don't even use it to evaluate fundamentalists. You know that there are plenty of organizations (e.g., the typical baptist church) that are unbalanced yet have much that is right with them.

    The stark black and white terms that were so popular through the 70s and 80s have been replaced by more nuanced language today. You would probably be shocked to know that I sat in chapel a few years ago and heard BJ3 speak positively of none other than Al Mohler. (He mentioned some correspondence between them, and I have heard that they have since developed a friendship.)

    I wish you could take the time to listen to Stephen Jones' chapel messages this year on the mission of BJU. He stressed the importance of being objective about the rules; he described rules he would not use in his own family but that fit in the institutional context; he said how weird it would be for students to carry on BJ's rules in their own homes rather than biblically determining their own. In the first chapel back from Christmas he laid out the University's core values. One of them was edifying love for God's people--which he applied beyond fundamentalism.

    Paul, you were personally offended by BJU when you were a student. Now you keep a busy schedule criticizing the school how ever many years later it is now. I don't think you have gone to the trouble to find out what the school is like today or to give them any leeway as an institution of fallible individuals. If BJU is in fact a Christ-centered, gospel-driven institution today, you are doing a disservice to those who could benefit from what BJU has to offer because you insist on attacking it for what it used to be.

    You have never answered my question on other threads of what good you hope to accomplish by criticizing policies and tendencies that by your own admission have been corrected.
     
  2. Palmetto Boy

    Palmetto Boy New Member

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    Most people's impression of BJU is shaped by their exposure to graduates. As you would expect, this means some people can't stand the school, other people love it. The BJ grads I was exposed to were top flight and that formed a positive image in my mind. Being from BJ meant being smart, outgoing, musical, and active in the church.

    Of course I eventually saw grads I wasn't so impressed with. There are plenty of BJ grads that might give you a bad taste as well. As with any school its size there are a lot of sharp graduates and a percentage of duds.

    I would recommend visiting BJU if you are really interested in it. I have had bad experiences with graduates of MBBC, Wheaton, Gordon, Messiah, Northland, . . . and BJU. So that tells me I can only conclude so much without looking at the school itself--both its academic program and a broad sampling of its graduates.

    If you want a conservative evangelical's evaluation of BJU, you might be interested to read Dead Right II--a discussion of fundamentalism by Phil Johnson of Grace to You and Grace Community Church. He has been at the vanguard of a growing alignment between conservative evangelicals and traditionally identified fundamentalists.
     
  3. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    ...as long as they're white.
     
  4. Nord

    Nord New Member

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    ...as long as they're white.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I dont' think that is a fair statement. Stephen Jones (new President) whom Palmetto was referring to has to the best of my knowledge not made any racist statements. The age old interratial dating ban under Bob Jones 1 or 2 and dropped by 3 was in my opinion racist. They tried to tie it to one world gov't concerns but I think it was left overs from the old South. BJU had students of many nationalities under BJ3 but the ban was in place until the whole GW Bush issue and then rightly (and overdue) dropped.

    At any rate Mike McK, what evidence do you have that Stephen Jones is racist which is what you are implying based on the fact that the response to the quote you gave above of Palmetto's refers to Stephen J. the Gen X president of BJU. If you have evidence please provide it.

    Nord
     
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    ...as long as they're white.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I dont' think that is a fair statement. Stephen Jones (new President) whom Palmetto was referring to has to the best of my knowledge not made any racist statements. The age old interratial dating ban under Bob Jones 1 or 2 and dropped by 3 was in my opinion racist. They tried to tie it to one world gov't concerns but I think it was left overs from the old South. BJU had students of many nationalities under BJ3 but the ban was in place until the whole GW Bush issue and then rightly (and overdue) dropped.

    At any rate Mike McK, what evidence do you have that Stephen Jones is racist which is what you are implying based on the fact that the response to the quote you gave above of Palmetto's refers to Stephen J. the Gen X president of BJU. If you have evidence please provide it.

    Nord
    </font>[/QUOTE]That school has a long history of racism that simply is too well known to deny.

    That's not even to go into the Jones' relationship with the Klan.
     
  6. MRCoon

    MRCoon New Member

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    Is it racism to want my son or daughter to marry a person of their own skin color? Is it wrong to not want them to date someone of another skin color no matter how light or dark it may seem? I'm against those who say white and blacks should not marry but then allow a white and hispanic or white and asian dating...this seems to be racist and simple segegration to my limited way of thinkng.

    I'm of the thinking that I'm not racist in any way...the Marine Corps only sees the color green...light or dark period. But I want my kids to marry spouses of their same skin color and this has nothing to do with a "purity of race" or anything like this. Just my humble opinion and choice. So for BJU to allow certain races to intermix and anothers not to is improper at best adn racism at worst.
     
  7. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    That's a little ironic with a name like "MrCoon", don't you think?



    LOL...
     
  8. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    Why?
     
  9. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    What's your scriptural basis for this opinion?

    Also, if it's about opinion and choice...what if your child chooses to date & marry a growing Christian from another race? Your child's choice differs from yours. What then?
     
  10. Nord

    Nord New Member

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    ...as long as they're white.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I dont' think that is a fair statement. Stephen Jones (new President) whom Palmetto was referring to has to the best of my knowledge not made any racist statements. The age old interratial dating ban under Bob Jones 1 or 2 and dropped by 3 was in my opinion racist. They tried to tie it to one world gov't concerns but I think it was left overs from the old South. BJU had students of many nationalities under BJ3 but the ban was in place until the whole GW Bush issue and then rightly (and overdue) dropped.

    At any rate Mike McK, what evidence do you have that Stephen Jones is racist which is what you are implying based on the fact that the response to the quote you gave above of Palmetto's refers to Stephen J. the Gen X president of BJU. If you have evidence please provide it.

    Nord
    </font>[/QUOTE]That school has a long history of racism that simply is too well known to deny.

    That's not even to go into the Jones' relationship with the Klan.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not denying the issue of interracial dating (policy against). I certainly would heartily disagree with that policy.

    Your statement about "as long as they are white" (paraphrase) was in reference to Palmetto's statement about Stephen Jones. So I ask again, what proof or reference do you have to support the idea that Stephen Jones (Gen Xer and President of BJU) is racist or is implementing racist policies. The implication of your statement in relation to Palmetto's quote implies both of those things. If you have no reference you might want to apologize or explain that you were not addressing the present administration of BJU but expressing what you believe were past issues with BJU.

    Nord
     
  11. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Given their history of racism, I have no more intention to apologize for calling them racists than I have to apologize to the Steelers for calling them the Super Bowl Champions.
     
  12. Nord

    Nord New Member

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    Palmetto said "In the first chapel back from Christmas he {Stephen Jones} laid out the University's core values. One of them was edifying love for God's people--which he applied beyond fundamentalism.

    Mike McK Said...."as long as they're white".

    I give up as I asked you at least two times to support the assertion implicated by your statement that Stephen Jones (Gen X President) is racist or that the polices (current) of the university under him are racist. You have offered nothing to support it other than keep stating that...in the past such and such. For the most part we all agree that the interracial dating ban was racist. You do not have anything to support any assertion that BJU is racist or Stephen Jones is racist. I do not mean this unkindly but there is no intellectual/logical support for your assertion. I would love to see something to back up or reference your assertion but you did not provide onebecause evidentally there is not one except "in the past they had xyz policy".

    It is lovely that you do not like BJU. That is your right. I have not attended nor would I because I do not enjoy that rigid of a code. Heck, I did not do doctoral studies at ORU partially because I see no reason why I as an adult cannot wear a beard or drink an occasional glass of wine (if I chose to). As an aside, I was amused to think that Jesus might have been booted off campus.

    Nord

    [ March 19, 2006, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Nord ]
     
  13. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Wow Paul. That's quite a statement. Your line of argument has a certain appeal, but if you are going to fairly evaluate BJU can you continue to insist on using your caricatured picture of secondary separation as a standard? If you reject binary secondary separation, then don't even use it to evaluate fundamentalists. You know that there are plenty of organizations (e.g., the typical baptist church) that are unbalanced yet have much that is right with them.

    The stark black and white terms that were so popular through the 70s and 80s have been replaced by more nuanced language today. You would probably be shocked to know that I sat in chapel a few years ago and heard BJ3 speak positively of none other than Al Mohler. (He mentioned some correspondence between them, and I have heard that they have since developed a friendship.)

    I wish you could take the time to listen to Stephen Jones' chapel messages this year on the mission of BJU. He stressed the importance of being objective about the rules; he described rules he would not use in his own family but that fit in the institutional context; he said how weird it would be for students to carry on BJ's rules in their own homes rather than biblically determining their own. In the first chapel back from Christmas he laid out the University's core values. One of them was edifying love for God's people--which he applied beyond fundamentalism.

    Paul, you were personally offended by BJU when you were a student. Now you keep a busy schedule criticizing the school how ever many years later it is now. I don't think you have gone to the trouble to find out what the school is like today or to give them any leeway as an institution of fallible individuals. If BJU is in fact a Christ-centered, gospel-driven institution today, you are doing a disservice to those who could benefit from what BJU has to offer because you insist on attacking it for what it used to be.

    You have never answered my question on other threads of what good you hope to accomplish by criticizing policies and tendencies that by your own admission have been corrected.
    </font>[/QUOTE]PB,

    Thanks for the thoughtful post.

    If BJU is changing, I am happy about that. But how would I know they are changing? My daughter and I were on the campus a few years ago. The rules were a little more lenient, but still very much like it was when I attended.

    The problem is that there is no mechanism for former students to know what is changing. And, of course, there is never an apology or honest assessment of where they have been and how they have changed.

    BJIII on Larry King Live made a mockery of their previous position on inter-racial dating. Instead of admitting what I knew to be the truth, he denied it. This keeps poor fellows like me in the dark as to their "other" changes.

    Humility, honesty, clarity, frankness, confession, would go along way in winning back friends.

    Thanks again for the post. Steve Jones does appear to be moving BJU in the right direction.
     
  14. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    You even admitted that you knew of their history and what that school was built on. Are you now denying what you admitted earlier?

    I disagree. They have a long and well known history of racism.

    And I don't mean this unkindly, but there is no intellectual or logical support for ignoring the history or nature of that school.
     
  15. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Mike Mck,

    You seem perfectly willing to condemn Bob Jones based on what you call their history of racism while ignoring the present opportunities given to minorities there. You also seem proud of your graduation from Auburn.

    Don’t you think that is a double standard seeing Auburn’s history of racism?

    I am sure you know that Auburn was founded in 1856 as the “East Alabama Male College,” and was in fact a Methodist college. (Wasn’t Bob Jones Sn. Methodist? Oh yea, he was from Alabama also.) The first female students came in 1892, but the first black Auburn student would not enroll until 1964. You seem willing to condemn Bob Jones based on their history, does that go for Auburn as well?

    Of course Auburn’s history of racism actually continues to this day.

    Here is a picture of Auburn students from 2001. No, I am not going to post the picture, it is just too offensive. If you are interested in the story you can read it at

    http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=319

    It seems that if Bob Jones has a dating rule its racism but if Auburn students want to dress if black face and simulate a lynching it is free speech.
     
  16. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    And would you like to tell the class what happened to the frat that did that?

    The frat had their charter revoked and their members expelled immediately.

    There is a world of difference between some nitwits, which every school is going to have, who are punished for their behavior, and a school such as Blacks Just Unworthy actually setting in place school-wide racist policies.

    Our recent past is a sad burder that we Southerners have to bear, but hopefully, we have moved on.

    Auburn's swift and harsh punishment of these idiots is a sign that we are no longer bound to the ignorance of our past.

    In spite of what they tried to do to Coach T, I'm proud of the leadership and the moral clarity they showed in putting an end to this behavior immediately.

    That is why I can proudly say of my alma mater and that Lovliest Village on the Plains, I believe in Auburn and love it!

    BJU cannot say that.
     
  17. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Of course, the university suspended the fraternity for "potentially offensive and racist conduct." but then backed down because they could not probit those poor students right to free speech.
     
  18. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    And the fraternity itself kicked out 13 brothers. I applaud them for that.
     
  19. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    NCT,

    I thought at least one of the fraternities was shut down...what do you mean that Auburn "backed down?" Not arguing, but I thought they handed them some significant punishments...

    Ya'll correct me if I'm wrong...
     
  20. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    The Beta Theta Pi chapter was suspended by Auburn on Nov 5, 2001 and reinstated on Feb 8, 2002 after they filed a lawsuit. From the internet at tolerance.org:
    And from stormfront.org
    Of course this is beside the point. I am neither defending or attacking Auburn, simply pointing out Mike McK's double standard.
     
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