What's Wrong with Calvinism?

John 12:32 - 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

It appears to me that the author was not expounding TULIP, nor had any intention of doing so. What he did was to set forth each Baptist Distinctive, and then demonstrate how Calvinism did not agree but rather contradicted the historic Baptistic Distinctives that we have held so dearly. That may or may not have anything to do with TULIP. In fact TULIP is not important. It is the Baptist Distinctives that are important. We measure things by the Word of God, not according to Calvin. You view things from the wrong direction.
DHK

 

DHK , I am surprised that you would say that Calvinists measure things by what John Calvin said . You have been around long enough ( aside from the the BB ) to know how wrong that notion of misinformation is . Tis a shame . We go by the Bible for our beliefs . It alone is our authority -- not humanistic , worldly philosophy which many Fundamentalists/Evangelicals use for their lightly-seasoned with Scripture approach .

 

It is unbiased and was before I became reformed. I was raised to believe man has free will, and that we can choose our salvation. I at one time defended the views as adamantly as Helen and everyone else. I became reformed while I was trying to prove that man has a free-will and is in control of his spiritual life. So if anything I was biased towards the other side, and unintentionally became reformed. So correct I have no agenda.

 

Actually there are many on this site with the same story.

 

...and many who were leaning towards calvinism because it stimulates the intellect and "tickles the ears", who the Holy Spirit would not let this doctrine sit right in their souls, myself included.

I believe is someone wants to believe something enough, God will turn them over to what they want to believe.

 

See the fnny thing is I used to bash the Calvinists with the same arguments until I went and studied and realized the arguments I was using do not stand up to the TRUTH.

 

All of it. Why? Do you need me to help you with it? :laugh:

Do you not think Jesus was lifted up from the earth?

 

HP a couple of things. I don't think the being lifted up has to do with Him being crucified, but ascended to the Father. I disagree with you that Romans 10 is speaking about eternal salvation. But I do agree that we can not crucifiy Him afresh, but that context is not eternal salvation either.

Bottom line is in Scripture we get no picture of eternal salvation being limited to certain people, but open to all.

 

Every once in a while you and I differ - here is a good case.

God chooses to have mercy on all "For God so loved the WORLD that He gave" - God sovereignly chooses to will "that ALL should come to repentance" for He says "He is not willing for ANY to persish" 2Peter 3.

In Romans 2 He flatly denies that "he is partial" to any one person or group over another - arbitrarily selecting one to hear the Gospel and another not to.

In Romans 10 He makes the case "from nature" that nature itself reaches out to ALL and so ALL hear.

In John 16 it is the WORLD that is convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment.

In John 12:32 it is the unqualified ALL -- ALL MANKIND that he draws,

In Rev 3 He stands at the door and knocks for all such that IF ANYONE hears His voice and OPENS He will come in.

In John 1 He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN.

Never does God say - well the reason only SOME of you are saved because I arbitrarily select a FEW for heaven and don't actually work that hard for the rest.

In Romans 2:11-16 God makes the case EVEN for the salvation of those who are so distant, so remote that they have no access to the Word of God at all but "do INSTINCTIVELY the things of God" where the Holy Spirit has circumcised the heart as He says in Romans 2 writing the New Covenant law on the heart.

IMHO -

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well here is a case where I nearly agree 100% with JJ!! Can't believe it!

Romans 10 IS talking about eternal salvation - look at the text it even states it - Salvation based on confession and belief "He who BELIEVES will be saved" as Christ said. This "not really eternal salvation" thing has to go.

But Romans 10 is very clear in the quote of Psalms that NATURE is the VOICE that they ALL HEAR so in Romans 10 ALL are exposed! ALL are evangelized ALL are exposed to the benefits of the Gospel.

God is not shackled to the ankles of the missionary or the evangelist - God the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In Romans 1 God says of those godless pagans in stubborn rebellion against God that "THEY are WITHOUT EXCUSE because the invisible attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN in the things that have been made"!!

This is Intelligent Design TIMES TEN!

So He makes the same argument for evangelism of ALL THE WORLD in Romans 10 quoting Psalms where it is NATURE that is speaking to all mankind of the Creator.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"As Moses LIFTED up the serpent in the wilderness so ALSO must the Son of Man be LIFTED UP" (on the cross)

The Messiah was LIFTED up just as predicted and hence the SAVED group of saints you see in Heb 11 PRE-Cross result from the gift and grace flowing back in time from the Cross to Adam!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Mark 16:16: “He who BELIEVES and is baptized shall be saved”

For infant baptism it would be “He who is baptized is saved EVEN if he does not believe”

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -
Acts 26
16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes[/b] so that they may turn from darkness to light[/b] and from the dominion of Satan to God[/b], that they may [b]receive forgiveness[/b] of sins and an inheritance[/b] among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'


#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

The rest of that verse I have highlighted says "not imputing their trespasses unto them" Do you believe that is descriptive of all men? If so, no one will be lost.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.