What's wrong with the so-called Pre-Wrath view?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mel Miller, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. Mel Miller

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    Friends,

    The latest attempt to preserve the view that 7 trumpets follow the 7th Seal and 7 plagues follow the 7th Trumpet is the "PRE-WRATH RAPTURE".

    This view places the Rapture at the opening of Seal Six ... not realizing the Day of God's and the Lamb's Wrath fulfills 60 of 100 verses in the Book of Revelation before Trump 7 announces the "appointed time has come" for RESURRECTION, RAPTURE, REWARDS AND RETRIBUTION". Rev.11:18.

    This view assumes God's wrath is "contained" in both the trumpets and plagues even though God's wrath is not even announced as "having come" until the 7th Trumpet. This is obviously inconsistent.

    All views of God's wrath, except the Post-Trib view, fail to show that those who survive the great tribulation will be "kept from the hour of trial" that Jesus says will come "suddenly, as a snare, on all those dwelling on all the face of all the earth" AFTER they "see the signs of His coming in power and great glory"! Luke 17:27-35.

    The "Hour of Trial" occurs when Christ comes "quickly" on the Day that comes "suddenly, as a snare on all earth-dwellers ... when they see Him appear in Person" ... after He "gathers the elect from earth to heaven and the tribes of earth begin to mourn and keep begging to escape and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man"! Rev.3:10-11; Luke 21:27-36; Matt.24:30-31; Luke 17:27-30; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Millions of suddenly convinced unbelievers will be "kept alive" to enter and populate the kingdom. IMO, the "tribes of earth who will keep on begging"
    (Greek) will include up to 500 million descendants of Ishamel's 12 tribes! Luke 17:33.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
  2. Mel Miller

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    Pre-Wrath

    Friends,

    I suspect this new view of the time for the Rapture has not yet become a subject for discussion among you all.

    I am not allowed to participate on one site that has over 200 members.
    They believe too strongly that, since (if) the seals are followed by 7 trumpets and then by the plagues, the Great Tribulation AND Rapture must occur before the Trumpets and the Plagues OR at least before the Plagues. Like the Pre-Tribbers, they do not agree among themselves as to the "unknown" Day of the Lord.

    The Pre-Trib view allows God's wrath in the Seals as well as the trumpets and plagues. The Post-Trib view sees God's wrath restricted to the Day and Hour Christ appears with all the Saints. That Day and HOUR, while occurring after the 1260 days of great tribulation, is still "unknown" except to the Father. He alone knows when the last martyr will be killed. He alone sends the message to the Son of Man, via three angels including the Angel of Fire, that the "HOUR to reap the earth has come".
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
    #2 Mel Miller, Aug 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2006
  3. Mel Miller

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    Pre-Wrath

    :love2: Friends,

    The switch by some from Pre-Trib to a Pre-Wrath Rapture was made by putting the Rapture at Seal Six AFTER the great tribulation.

    Then they put the Plagues of God's anger (thumos) after the Rapture
    on the assumption that they "complete (FINISH) God's wrath" (orgay).
    Rev.15:1. Instead they "exhaust God's patience". New Jerusalem Bible.

    The advocates of this view cannot agree among themselves on whether the 7 Trumpets, as well as the 7 Plagues, are part of God's wrath (orgay). They must admit His wrath (orgay) "has come" as of the Last Trumpet in Revelation. Rev.11:18.

    God's patience, even with the Beast's armies, does not end until the
    7th Plague FINISHES God's macro-thumos (long-anger or long-suffering).
    The fact that the wicked could "repent" under the 6th Trumpet AS WELL
    AS the 5th Vial reveals that God's patience (thumos) continues until
    the 7th Plague empties in the air. Rev.9:20-21; Rev.16:9-11.

    Instead of repenting, the wicked "kill a third of mankind" and cross the Euphrates for the plains of Armageddon! That's when 100 verses in Revelation begin to be fulfilled on the DAY OF GOD'S AND THE LAMB'S WRATH. Rev.6:17.

    This means that Rev.16:12-17 will be fulfilled just prior to Rev.6:12-17!
    Understanding this order of events will bring UNITY among Believers.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. Not_hard_to_find

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    Nothing, not even our Lord, has been able to achieve this on earth. Perhaps in heaven?
     
  5. Salamander

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    No Scriptire for unity amongst the believers, only amongst the BRETHREN.

    I couldn't have untiy with devils who also believe and tremble at the word of God.

    I can strive to have unity betwixt my brethren, and that has been acheived before and I would love for it to be more often, but we are men of different minds.
     
  6. Mel Miller

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    So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

    I should have indicated that, with respect to unity of opinion on the time for the Rapture, Jesus anticipates that Believers will "know when the End is near". Matt.24:33. Pre-Trib adherents falsely assume that those who "know the End is near will also know the exact Day of the 2nd coming".

    By stating that "no one can know the exact Day of His coming to gather
    the elect from earth to heaven", Jesus indicated "that Day will be one of
    the days immediately after great tribulation". Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29.

    So instead of the Rapture being an "any-moment" event prior to the great tribulation, Jesus taught that it will be an "any-moment" event after the
    Two Prophets "finish their 1260-day task and remain dead in a street of the city of Jerusalem for up to 3 1/2 days. Rev.11:7-11.

    Prophetic Time ends "in the days just before the 7th Trumpet sounds" and God's wrath will occur on one of those (3 1/2) days cause "time will be no longer" subject to a countdown. Rev.10:6-7. The appointed time for God's wrath will have come because the Beast's armies will be "gathering to Armageddon" while the Two Prophets remain dead ... until the last believer "who must be killed has been killed". Rev.6:9-11.

    These are the days of waiting when all believers will be in total UNITY as to the time for the Rapture and deliverance of Jews from God's wrath. I'm hoping that this UNITY of expectation will be understood even sooner because the "Day of the Lord" is a single 12-Hour-Day during which 100 verses in Revelation will be fulfilled.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  7. Mel Miller

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    So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

    _____________________________________________________________
    My friend, you make some interesting observations! I wonder how you distinguish between believers and the Brethren.

    I am striving for UNITY only on the question of when we will "know and be certain of the appointed time" for the Rapture as required by Rev.11:18.

    Jesus says we will "know when that Day is near". Matt.24:33.
    It will be near "in the days after great tribulation". Matt.24:15,21,29,36.

    John reveals it will be near "in the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound ... when chronos-time will be no longer" subject to a countdown ... while the Two Prophets remain dead in a street of the city of Jerusalem for up to 3 1/2 days! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

    We will know that Prophetic Time has ended when the Two Prophets are killed by the Beast and his armies are gathering to the Armageddon plains for the slaughter on the "great day of God Almighty"! Rev.16:12-17.

    I see no way for the wrath of the "DAY of the Lord" to be any day other than that of the wrath of the "Day of God Almighty"! On that single Day all of 100 verses in the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled. That's the thesis
    presented in my "Centerpiece" at www.lastday.net
    Mel Miller :wavey:
     
  8. npetreley

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    I happen to believe the pre-wrath rapture concept, that we are raptured on the Day of the Lord just before He pours out His wrath upon the world. I have no idea what the "official" view is on how this aligns with the trumpets, and I confess I'm not very motivated to find out.
     
  9. EdSutton

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    Heh! Heh! Personally, I'll find it out when I see it. But thanks be to God, I won't 'experience' it!

    Ed
     
  10. Mel Miller

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    So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

    npetreley,

    Thanks much. I too believe in the TRUE view of the Pre-Wrath Ratpure.

    But the "so-called" unknown day for the "Pre-Trib Rapture" view is that
    the Plagues are NOT part of the great tribulation. This view has no clue
    as to when "we will know the end is near". They don't even agree among themselves as to whether the Trumpets are part of God's wrath.

    Jesus states "we will know when the End is near" and justifies His this
    fact in Revelation by showing the End comes "within the (3 1/2) days
    between the killing of the Two Prophets and their resurrection on the
    Day of the 7th Trumpet.

    The 7th Trumpet, the Last Trump, signals the "Day of Wrath has come"
    and the "appointed time to judge and reward (Resurrect and Rapture) the dead" in Christ. The Pre-Wrath folks make the same error as the Pre-Trib folks. They assume the Day of the Lord is NOT a single 12-Hour Day!

    I look for a day when there is no more "confusion" as to what Jesus
    meant by the "Days of Wrath upon this people until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" and the "DAY of His Wrath during which none of the wicked will escape". Luke 21:22-24, 34-36; Rev.16:17; Rev.6:17.

    I just can't accept that Jesus would lend His approval to any "doubt"
    about the difference between "Day" and "Days"! Because that DAY
    includes the sounding of the 7th, the Last Trump of Revelation!
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
     
  11. npetreley

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    Well, I don't know the details of what you believe well enough to say whether or not I agree with every one. But I'm with you on the following:

    1. The pre-trib rapture is not only false, but the support for it is so convoluted as to be a joke. I thought it was convoluted back when I "believed it" (really just took people's word for it), which is why I kept searching for an answer that made sense.

    2. The rapture occurs just before God's outpouring of wrath.

    3. It occurs at the last trump. Why? Because the Bible says so, and I'm not going to argue with the Bible.
     
  12. webdog

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    Be sure to tell this to the apostle Paul when you get to Heaven.
     
  13. npetreley

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    I'm sure he already knows.
     
  14. webdog

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    I doubt it, as he preached concerning a pre trib rapture.
     
  15. Mel Miller

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    So-Called Pre-Wrath Rapture

    Webdog,
    I notice that once in a while you chip in as a Pre-Trib believer. Over a
    month ago, on this matter, you wrote:

    Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    Pre trib for me. The Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath...God's or the antichrist. What is the purpose of the church going through the tribulation anyway? God's wrath for the church was taken out on Christ on the cross! The tribulation is for the jews.
    ______________________________________________________________

    The Church will go thru the GREAT tribulation so that all believers caught up to meet the Lord may be counted "worthy" by their testimony that they are not ashamed of Christ and "love not their life unto death". Rev.12:10-11.

    You are correct that "we (they) ARE NOT APPOINTED to God's wrath". But where does it say we (they) are not appointed to the wrath of Antichrist?

    The "tribulation" has been "for the Jews" since AD 70 when a million of them
    were killed or taken captive by the Romans. The tribulation (wrath) of those "days" will continue until Gentile times are finished. Luke 21:22-24.

    I sense you equate "tribulation" with God's "wrath" and so escaping God's
    wrath is equivalent to escaping the "tribulation". But then you assume that
    we escape the tribulation (wrath) because of Christ's death on the Cross!!

    I think you need to encompass the truth that "judgment must begin with
    the household of God" ... especially since the sins of believers are not a
    good testimony before the world! I suggest your comfort in deliverance
    from wrath may have become an excuse for escaping tribulation. Jesus
    "did not pray that we be delivered from tribulation; but from the evil one"!
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
  16. webdog

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    How can you separate the two? You can't. Antichrist can only do what God allows. The Bible tells us that as believers, we can resist the Devil. This will not be the case during the Great Tribulation. Does that mean that we cannot really resist the Devil...or those indwelt with the Holy Spirit will no longer be here? I go with the latter.
     
  17. npetreley

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    The Bible consistently separates the two. Romans refers to the objects of His wrath vs. the objects of His mercy. The objects of His mercy have and always will endure tribulation, but that's not the same thing as God's wrath. Starting with the early church, believers have been stoned, mutilated, crucified, and endured some of the most horrific tribulation imaginable. None of these were acts of God's righteous indignation. And if God did not spare them (and does not prevent such things now for all Christians), why do you think God will spare present-day Christians by rapturing us out of such tribulation? God allows such things because they test and refine the saints. It is a testimony of great faith and reverence, and therefore glorifies God to endure tribulation.

    In contrast, the Day of the Lord is not tribulation against believers, but wrath of righteous indignation against the wicked. This is the wrath to which we are not appointed.

    There's a good reason why the Bible calls one "great tribulation" and calls the other "the day of His wrath".
     
  18. webdog

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    That's not what I meant by not separating the two. I was referring to God's wrath and the antichrist's wrath. It can't be stated the antichrist's wrath is separate from God's.
     
  19. Mel Miller

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    Pre-Wrath

    Webdog,

    Quote:
    _____________________________________________________________
    I was referring to God's wrath and the antichrist's wrath. It can't be stated the antichrist's wrath is separate from God's.
    _____________________________________________________________

    My friend, they must be separated in my view because it is only God's
    wrath that destroys the Antichrist on the Day Christ comes in glory.
    If God's wrath occurred any time sooner than the last day, Antichrist
    would be vanquished and cast into Hell.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  20. skypair

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    Hey guys,

    Just reading through your prewrath thread here. Got a question ---- Do you guys see Rev 7:9 as the rapture like most prewrathers do? Then how come the 5th seal saints come up and get the same white robes BEFORE the prewrath saints do? Are you saying there are 2 raptures?

    See, my understanding of scripture is that anyone who is NOT raptured comes to heaven NAKED, 2Cor 5:1-4. Is that yours? So the 5th seal saints were naked and received "white robes." Later the GT martyrs come up and appear having already been given theirs SAME "white robes." So neither of these groups are raptured.

    Back to the drawing board?

    skypair
     

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