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What's "Wrong" With User Friendly

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by HeDied4U, Aug 19, 2003.

  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    As am I ... but I find myself alternating between amused and disgusted by Warren's exegesis of Scripture. It stems from his overriding concern to start with life and then to go Scripture to try to preach about it. He ends up raping the contexts to try to make a point. This light view of Scripture is all too prevalent and is a major problem.
     
  2. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually most of the SBC baptizes so few they do not have to keep up with them. You need to study more thoroughly the contemporary model. Again, most of those leading the way in this new paradigm have high standards for baptism and church membership (often higher than their critics). That is why many of them have far fewer members than attendees.

    At least you do not attack the straw man that WC is all about evangelism with no discipleship.

    I have read Weber's arguments and proposal. Some of it is good. Much of it is preference.

    It must be noted that I am not arguing in favor of a completely contemporary model in every situation. "Traditional" has its place. But I also recognize that for many the contemporary model is the most effective model within their immediate culture. Again, the package is not what is most important here. What is most important is the content.

    It is hard to make general statements like this regarding 40k+ churches, but you are entitled to your opinion.

    Rick Warren has nothing to hide. Admittedly he is not Baptist first. Putting Baptist on one's sign has nothing to do with the integrity of a ministry nor the message they preach. Are you going to attack MacArthur along these same lines?

    I will agree with one thing you note above. We are definitely in a transition phase of church paradigms. The critics had better wake up. Most of the churches being planted today (which will lead the way into the following generations) are employing the more contemporary approach.

    Methods change and will always change -- the message remains the same. We can accept that reality and embrace it or we can watch the parade pass us by as we criticize those who are leading the way.
     
  3. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    So easy to say -- so impossible to prove.

    Ominiscient one, how do you measure God's favor? ;)

    I am not mincing words. I embrace most of the contemporary model and have no issue defending it for what it is. Most of those who criticize it know so little about it that the task is not difficult. Straw men burn easily.
     
  4. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    How many Rick Warren sermons have you actually heard?

    So because Rick Warren may or may not embrace your preferred style of preaching he has a "light view of Scripture"?

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    As I find myself alternating between amused and disgusted by the unsubstantiated charges often leveled against those who differ from us.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    None ... but I have read his books and I assume that he has taken more time and thought in writing his books than he does in his weekly sermons. So I don't think I am far off base here.

    It has nothing to do with my preferred style of preaching. It has to do with accurate handling of Scripture. When Scripture becomes a tool to further your own thoughts, that is a light view of it. It should shape our thoughts and I think that is where this method fails. I call it a "light view" because it too often fails to deal with Scripture as it was intended.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    As I find myself alternating between amused and disgusted by the unsubstantiated charges often leveled against those who differ from us. </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you should consider that you are the one who is wrong. I have the Purpose Driven Life right now reading it. I find it very challenging though he certainly needs some help with choosing a translation and with applying some of his verses. This is one of the reasons I made the above comment. He is too often an idea in search of a text and will go find a version that says what he wants to say and then use it. I have a serious problem with that approach to Scripture.

    I have PDC on my desk right now with a note pad beside it and I am rereading it and taking some notes with a view to culling the good stuff. In reading it again, I am seeing again how many unsubstantiated statements he makes, like "just ride the wave that God is sending" without ever bothering to tell us how we identify that wave and separate it from other waves. That is a major weakness because too many people without biblical discernment are riding the wrong wave. At the same time, I find much of his emphasis solid and it creates great opportunity for thinking. You seem to act as if everyone who disagrees with you has their head in the sand. I daresay there is a greater number of solid critical thinkers on this side of the fence than on that side. Our differences are matters of theology and the importance of doing God's work in God's way. Many of the charges you reject as unsubstantiated might spring from your own unwillingness to examine some of these things critically ... who knows ... but it is certainly worthy of thought.

    As I say, I find myself encouraged yet again by much of what Warren says. I find my thinking being challenged. But that does not mean that I have to accept all of his tenets uncritically.
     
  8. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Actually you are way off base. PDC & PDL are not written as exegetical works. Recognize them for what they are.

    I was basing my previous comments regarding Warren's preaching on your words above, where you stated:

    Now I see that you have never even heard Warren preach, so you have no idea what type of exegesis he does. It might benefit you to know he recently spent 2 1/2 years going verse-by-verse through Romans.

    You can rest assured that Rick Warren has as high a view of Scripture as you. Have you heard his lectures on preaching? I am assuming not. You might want to listen to the reasoning behind his preferred style before you criticize the approach. Actually his method has far more biblical support than what is often labeled "expository" preaching. I am not saying I embrace or practice his style, but I recognize it for what it is.


    I have spent far more time studying under those who embrace your mentality than those who do not. I have examined this issue thoroughly. It truly took a work of God to change my perspective on these matters.

    I don't pretend that the PDC model is perfect nor do I take as automatically legitimate everything Warren says or does. There are actually others I follow more closely than Warren. I will admit you have a slightly different attitude toward Warren than many of his critics. I think you recognize the significance of the PDC model on the modern church. I think you see some positive and some negative. I accept that. I am in the same boat (although I probably embrace far more than you).

    At the same time, it is statements like this one that digresses the conversation:

    The implication that those who disagree with me are not "critical" thinkers is offensive. If we are considering numbers, you can put all of us "conservatives" in the minority of "critical" thinkers.

    It took a whole lot of critical thinking to break down the box that held me captive for so long. Thankfully I can now appreciate a number of people God has used in an extraordinary way to teach me many different approaches, methods, and preferences.
     
  9. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    I do. I keep a copy in my bathroom. You know, just in case I run out of toilet paper.
     
  10. Griffdog

    Griffdog New Member

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    Gunther, you don't have many friends, do you?

    Josh
     
  11. Griffdog

    Griffdog New Member

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    ((joke))

    "Methods change and will always change -- the message remains the same. We can accept that reality and embrace it or we can watch the parade pass us by as we criticize those who are leading the way."

    Love. It.

    I'm headed to Saddleback again the second week of September to brainstorm some student ministry stuff with them. I'm pumped about the opportunity to help realize the vision God has always had for the church. Just thought I'd share.

    Josh
     
  12. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    He says as the parade rolls by.

    BTW if you "use" them up you should have no trouble finding another since they have sold over 6 million between them.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    So it is okay to mishandle Scripture in a non exegetical work?? Surely you jest ...

    But 2 1/2 years in romans is not admirable is you use SCripture the way that Warren does in PDC and PDL. My comments are based on what he has written as well comments from those who have heard him speak.

    Critical thinking goes farther than accepting the new models because "they work." As for you in particular, I have no real clue. I don't know you. As for many I have heard and read on this topic, I find them very uncritical. I find them enamored by "success." I question whether or not they have thought critically about it. There is a herd mentality, where everybody chase what seems to work without really looking at the issues from a biblical standpoint. If you are different, then that is fine. As I say, I don't know so I can't testify to that.
     
  14. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Larry,

    It is obvious you are going to make judgments on Warren based upon your own preferences, so arguing whether his exegesis is "correct" or not is futile. If you can show how Warren has misused the text for his own agenda, we can discuss it. If you are going to criticize him because he does not chose your preferred preaching style, we will talk in circles.

    Your "because it works it must be right" straw man just does not hold water. Success is not the only determining factor on whether something is legitimate, but neither is it extraneous. God's blessing is often seen in terms of success. No one has yet to show how Rick Warren has ever distorted the gospel. That being the case, it is a fair assessment to say God is blessing what they are doing.

    Agree or disagree with his approach, you cannot argue with the fact that Saddleback is fulfilling the Great Commission in an extraordinary way. Rick Warren is an avid reader and student. You can rest assured that there is very little Saddleback does that has not been thoroughly examined in light of Scripture. You have yet to provide one concrete example to support your accusations. Until then ... [​IMG]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Perhaps you should read closer. I have nowhere judged Warren or PDC on my own personal preferences. To use your favorite accusation, that is a straw man.

    As for examples of his bad exegesis, I will find the PDL and post some when I get a chance.

    As for the "beacuse it works it must be right straw man," there is nothing straw man about it. You are grossly kidding yourself if you do not think that is prevalent in the church growth movement. If you have studied all these churches, you should know first hand that is the case. I earlier pointed out a weakness in Warren's paradigm. He talks of finding the wave that God is blessing and ride it. He does not provide one iota of biblical guidance as to how to determine that wave. That is a serious weakness. He may know how; he may not know how. But in reading the book, there is no teaching about it. I am greatly concerned by those who believe that numbers are the sign that God is blessing. I have talked to the people ... I have read the books ... I have seen the arguments ... I have seen the fruit ... People believe that whether you like it or not. I am not saying that every big church is pragmatic. I have no way of knowing that. But I do know some of them are and I know some of the people in them are. As for you, I cannot judge that.

    As for whether or not Saddleback is fulfilling the Great Commission in an extraordinary way, how in the world could I judged that? I am not there. I have no basis on which to judge it. What basis do you think I should be using??

    It seems you are the straw man opposite. You set up parameters for judging success without arguing that those parameters are really valid measures to judge by. I cannot agree with that approach in the least. That seems to be the difference. I am not convinced by what you say here that the standards by which you measure success and ministry are the standards by which ministry should be measured. I simply cannot tell that. But we must be committed to NT standards of ministry, not 21st century standards ... I fear that is where many in the church growth movement are falling very short and it is something that we must watch with wary eyes for.
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have heard Rick Warren claim that about 75 percent of the people in his church received Christ through the ministry there. How many other churches can make that claim?

    Non-believers cannot worship God but they can watch others worship God. All of us worship the God we think we know. The God I know serves others. The God I know has served me by giving his only begotten Son--Jesus Christ. As God has loved us so are we to love others.

    A selfish church does not exist so that it can be built up and bring others to Christ. But a church that dies to itself does. The church does not exist solely for the believer. It is to build up the believer and bring the non-believer to Christ. The non-believer can only gain faith by hearing the word of God and that comes by the peaching of the gospel. It is not about the holy huddle but it is coming into the presence of a holy God who commands our obedience.

    Every church should have non-believers present.

    Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthian "church" and in it he stated in 1 Cor 14:22-25, " So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy [is for a sign], not to unbelievers but to those who believe. Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    All of us should be seeker friendly. When we invite someone to our home as visitors we consider what we will serve or not serve for a meal. When we invite a Jew we would not fix pork for dinner. Anybody that is a wise preacher will consider the message for the people. Eccl. 12:9,10,"In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs. The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly."

    Let's face it, the average person sitting in the pew has never led anyone to Christ. That certainly is not seeker friendly. It is a lack of confidence in the God who is, and a lack of love for the lost.

    I will admit that a number of seeker sensitive churches are nothing more than sugar pills. I am repulsed by them. I believe that non-Christians come to hear the tough stuff. I have seen it first-hand. Those who want to hear are not looking for a pastoral message that is unprepared and shows a lack of serious study. In every church I have pastored I have had people who claim to have been Christians for several years telling e they don't understand the message. But I have had new believers telling me they appreciate what I say. It is not about intellectual understanding but about spiritual enlivenment.

    Some say numbers don't matter. When the early church grew it was clearly seen in maturity and numbers.

    There is one reason why people don't hear the message. The reason is that we don't love them enough to give them the gospel. Over and over again I have heard from people that what I told them and they received changed their life and so often there family. That is what makes life so great when we know God. When we know God we love those whom God has created. Jesus continued to love me when I was unlovely and turned my back on him and decided to do my own thing. Because of his mercy and grace I am what I am.
     
  17. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    So you have not attacked Warren for not falling into your definition of expository preaching??? Give me a break.

    I have never said numbers are irrelevant in the church growth movement. There is a difference however in what you suggest. Most of the critics of the CGM want to pretend these churches possess an end justifies the means mentality that is willing to distort the gospel if necessary. That is the straw man I attack.

    As I stated in my previous post, success in terms of numbers is often an indicator of God's blessing. I took time to quote several verses on this matter in a previous thread. I will not take time to do so again, but I think we both understand that Acts is full of "numbers." Why? To show how God grew the Early Church. Numbers are indeed an indicator.

    You reveal your lack of understanding of the PDL/PDC paradigm here. Warren only speaks in terms of church health, defining and living the purposes of God. That presupposition dictates every principle in the books. That is the "biblical guidance" that controls how one determines where God is leading. If you listened to Warren preach/teach, you would discover that his main emphasis is upon a healthy church and not a "wave-oriented" or "numbers-based" church. Numbers only enter the picture because a healthy church will be a growing church (Great Commission obedience). The "wave" never supercedes the purposes. It only provides momentum to what God is already doing.

    If you were to study Saddleback, you would discover that almost 80% of their growth has come from conversions and baptism. An outstanding percentage of their people are involved in discipleship, mission trips, local ministry, etc. As a matter of fact, you cannot be a part of their church w/o going through basic discipleship classes that articulate spiritual disciplines, tithing, ministry, etc. The criteria is simple. Read Matt 28.19-20 and then examine the church. Are these things happening? Yes (in an extraordinary way).

    Contrast Saddleback's growth process with someone like Piper and you will be amazed. Almost all of Piper's growth has been church transfers. As far as I know, they have never baptized more than 40 people in a year. Warren, on the other hand, discourages church transfers and tries to get them to not come to Saddleback. I am not disparaging either man. I am simply pointing out that Saddleback is Great Commission minded and others simply talk the talk.

    I don't remember articulating my parameters. I think the Great Commission and the Great Command would be my starting point. And since the 5 purpose are based upon these two teachings, well to quote you: we must be committed to NT standards of ministry, not 21st century standards .

    It seems that your standards (expository preaching for one) are the ones found outside the NT. But then again, we must save that point for another day.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    No, I haven't. Look back at what I actually said. I said he misuses Scripture. One can use Scripturally properly without expository preaching. There is another thread started on this. As soon as I get back to my office or find the PDL here at the house, I will contribute to that.

    I think you are kidding yourself if you think this is a straw man. It may be a straw man for your particular thinking but you do not represent the whole.

    I do not disagree but they are an indicator within a context, the context of biblical obedience.

    I do understand the PDC. I do understand what you say here. But Warren gives very little information. REad the book again adn see if I am not right. He does not tell us how to determine the difference between personality driven growth, program driven growth, entertainment driven growth, etc.

    I understand this and appreicate it. However, it is not my point.

    But my point is that great numbers do not always testify to true results. I honestly have no idea. I have not been there so I can't say. My point is only to caution about a mentality that says "so and so is having 3 services and 10,000 people ... God must be blessing."

    How can you say that expository preaching is a standard found outside the NT???

    Question: If Warren started using traditional music this Sunday, what do you think would happen to the growth and attendance of his church? (My point is not a philosophical one about the rightness or wrongness of a particular style. It is about something else. So play along with me here for a minute.)

    I enjoy the interaction with you. Believe me, I am very sympathetic to much of what Warren says. I am, at the same time, very concerned about some of it.
     
  19. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    The impossible aspect is disproving it.

    One does not have to be omniscient to know how the Bible speaks of those whom God has shown favor.

    I am sure you are smart enough to figure it out without hit and run statements.

    I will leave you to do your study now.
     
  20. Gunther

    Gunther New Member

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    Perhaps this is where the breakdown exists.

    1. Was the great commission given to the apostles, the local church, or the church in general.

    2. Where is the promise that any individual will actually be part of the conversion of another that he may be a disciple?

    Warren apparently believes that you will definitely produce fruit (using fruit as a term for conversions).

    Do you really want to go there? Is it true for all people everywhere for all time?

    I know of the text but cannot think of where it is. One example of sloppy Warren exegesis is that of when Christ condemned the fig tree as a picture of Israel and that is proof you will have fruit. Yeah, he didn't move too far from that text.

    No, he has his own mind made up and then finds a text. Larry hit the nail on the head with that line.
     
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