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I interpreted your previous words where you criticized Warren for starting with life and moving to the text as an attack on his preferred style. If you are not criticizing his preferred method, I stand corrected. We can let the reader decide.

And perhaps you are kidding yourself if you believe these churches have no regard for the gospel or no problem distorting it. If you have heard someone such as Hybles speak, there can be no question the gospel drives his philosophy of ministry.

And disobedience has yet to be shown.

A purpose-driven church does not have to "determine the difference". They are driven by the 5 purposes, therefore the other drives become moot. As Warren articulates clearly, it all begins with the "why" question. As a church identifies its reason for existence, these questions are answered.

A visit to Saddleback would definitely change your perspective. I am not advocating that mentality. I am simply suggesting numbers can be and are often a sign of God's blessing.

By its very definition, it is something humans bring to the text. As far as I know there is no prescribed method of preaching in the NT. Paul's admonition to "Preach the Word" has nothing to do with style or method but everything to do with content.

That is an unfair question. Saddleback's music is a part of their methodology. That is like asking what would happen at Grace if MacArthur started doing chalk talks. Hypothetical accomplish very little. If you have a primary point, I am willing to address it.

Interaction is healthy.

 

And based upon the Acts model, Saddleback seems to fit the paradigm.

Yes

The Great Commission is a command.

If one is faithful to the Great Commission, he/she will produce fruit. The Great Commission assumes success by those who fulfill the command.

 

I would say we have to be careful with some of these new movements. Yet lets not throw it out because it is new or different - that happens all to often amongst Bible believing Christians.

The first thing I would find out is do they preach pluralism(Jesus is a way) or is Jesus Christ preached as "THE WAY". Do they teach that Jesus was the Son of God - the God-man, God in the flesh?

Do they teach the Bible is the perfect and infallible Word of God?

While I might disagree with them on other subjects there is no room for disgreement on these things stated above.

As far as where they meet that is irelavent - the first church meet in peoples homes - if meeting in a coffee shop is a good evangelistic tool than go for it.

The early church did not have people sitting in pews in grand auditoriums with organ music in the background.

Having said that for all my PB friends, that does not make it wrong to have a building with organ music playing in the backround.

Unlike some of my fellow IFB buddies I am not afraid of new methods of reaching the lost as long as it remains God centered and not experiance centered.

IFBReformer

 

SBC,

You have mentioned Piper quite a few times...I just wanted to respond with the fact that Piper puts emphasis on equipping the believrs in his church to share Christ,but he is also very concerned with the depth of ministry...I would think that his memebers have grown with good correct teaching and have become mature in the faith as a result...I wonder how that would compare to a saddleback sam's depth....Sure,Saddleback has lots of new members,but I am concerend with the idea that many there may not have a good grasp of scripture...his church is full of rollerblading ministries and the like,and maybe some bible study...but what is the focus? Is it teaching and learning God's Word? If it was,his book would be about that,not how to grow a church to make man like it better.

I'm glad he has taught through Romans...that is good...I pray he will continue doing this...

We went to visit a church that was highly influenced by Rick Warren's book and the sermon was about 20 minutes long and was similar to what I teach my elem age children during their bible lesson on a typical homeschool morning. I don't know if this is how Rick teaches,but his book leads me to think churches should dumb things down so *people* will like it. It is like man's desires are the objective instead of glorifying God.

For the record,I agree with Pastor Larry and Gunther. Big shocker....


Molly

 

In the Warren/PDC/Saddleback model, what is the reason for its existence?

 

My criticism of his method stands, but that has nothing to do with my personal preference. Too often preachers have a pretext in search of a text. The authority of Scripture demands that we start with the text and ask "What does this say?" rather than asking "What do I want to say?"

Studies have shown that Hybels in particular avoided certain words and phrases for a great deal of his preaching ministry because of hte impact that those words might have. That is exactly my point. I do not say that these churches have "no regard" for the gospel.

But within the purposes of a church, there are boundary lines. Let's for example use a non church example. In the OT, when the ark of the ocvenant was with the Philistines, David wanted to move it back. He had a right purpose ... It was a God-ordained biblical purpose (i.e., it was an act of direct obedience to explicit commands) ... It was in the best interest of the nation (i.e., it would help the nation to be obedient). Yet David went about a right task in a wrong way. He was purpose driven but he was disboedient.

Consider in the same case, that Uzzah driven by a noble and godly purpose went about his task in a wrong way and it cost him his life.

Now don't tell us that obedience doesn't matter if we are driven by purpose. When Warren tells people to "find what God is blessing and do it," he does not tell people how to discern the blessing of God from anything else. Is it possible that Satan would find a way to make something look like God was blessing it?? After all, he is able ot transform himself and his angels into what looks like "ministers of light." I think this is a key weakness. I agree that we ought to find what God is blessing and do it. But there have to be some principles to determine what is blessing from God and what is not. And obedience is a key factor.

This is true, but more often, they are not. The largest gatherings in the world are not Christian gatherings.

This shows a basic misunderstanding. Expository preaching is not a style so much as it is about the content. When Paul said "Preach the word," he meant to preach teh word ... what it says. That is what expository preaching is. The opposite of expository preaching is what you reference above when you talk about bringing somethign to the text. Expository means that the text determines what is said from it. That is the only proper method of handling Scripture.

An example of Warren's bad exegesis I saw this mornign in PDC when he talks about the "Nehemiah principle: That a vision has to be recommunicated every 26 days" and bases it on Nehemiahs encouragement of people halfway through the 52 day buidling project. The problem is that there is nothing in the text that indicates such a teaching. It is not repeated elsewhere. To draw a principle from something like that is tenuous at best. And that is a fairly minor offense.

That is exactly my point. It is a part of their methodology but is it a valid part of biblical philosophy of ministry? If people were truly growing biblically, changing the music should have no effect. My suspicion is that we would find something very different.

 

By the time a person at Saddleback goes through their discipleship process, they are well-equipped in their faith. Again, you miss the balance that the PDC model emphasizes. Discipleship is as vital as evangelism.

Saddleback Sam is not equipped at all. Sam is the target. He is the unbeliever who lives in the community. The goal is to transform Sam into a disciple. Study the baseball diamond paradigm and you will begin to understand this aim more clearly.

the goal is to transform unbelievers into fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ.

Regarding Piper, there is an innate danger in having a head full of biblical knowledge that means very little to your everyday life. It does not matter how much biblical knowledge one has if he/she is not faithful to share their faith. I would much rather have a believer who is faithful to win people to Christ than to be able to articulate the 5 points of Calvinism.

Knowledge and Practical faithfulness are the goal and going in either direction to an extreme is a mistake. That's why I find it ironic that most of Piper's growth is church transfers and very little through salvations.

He has always done this.

Rick Warren's sermons average 50-55 minutes.

Rick Warren clarifies in chapter 1 of the PDL that it is all about God and not about us. Communicating the gospel at a level unbelievers can understand it is not "dumbing" it down. Nothing is sacrificed. This argument continues to surace but has yet to be proven. I have challenged repeatedly for this accusation to be validated but it has yet to happen.

 

I believe that when the whole counsel of God is taught,hearts do change and people do live differently in light of scripture...I believe the power is in God's Word and it does work. If someone just possesses head knowledge,then they lack a living faith in Christ and are unregenerate...I do not believe this is the case with Piper nor what he desires. But,we have to know and understand God's word...we have to be growing in the knowledge of Christ. I think we can all agree with that. Just because a church has a strong biblical emphasis and great teaching does not men it is full of puffed up head knowledgeable guys...if the Word is taught and obeyes,we would see just the opposite.

You may have some scripture taught at SB(whether or not is in true context as Pastor Larry has pointed out is left to be seen). This would be a great concern for me...how is the Word of God handled and taught.

But,since I do not know,I can only comment on his book and church growth approach...which both of these I have great problem with.

Great comments Pastor Larry. I agree about expository preaching and agree with the fact that we should go to the text asking what God is saying to us.

Molly