When did Caiaphas die?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bro Tony, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    Is anyone here aware of any historical information concerning the date of Caiaphas' death? Some of my friends that are full preterists state that Matthew 26:64 speaks of the second coming and that it took place in 70AD. Caiaphas being the high priest at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry must of been up in age. Jesus spoke these words to him approximately 40 years before 70AD. It seems highly unlikely Caiaphas was alive in 70AD and this verse be speaking of the second coming. If anyone has some information I would appreciate it.
    Thanks and God Bless,
    Bro Tony
     
  2. Grasshopper

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  3. Bro Tony

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    That is my question also. While the discussion you refer to deals with the generation question, it does not deal with whether Jesus was telling Caiaphas specifically that he would be there for the second coming. If it did like full preterist state happen in 70 AD, was Caiaphas alive then and what did he see? Any historical information about Caiaphas?

    Bro Tony
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    He saw the Lord coming in judgement on Jerusalem.

    It is up to the futurist to interpret the passage in another way than its obvious meaning.
     
  5. Daniel David

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    GH, did he also see the Lord sitting beside the Father in heaven?
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    His judgement on Jerusalem was the proof that Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the Father.

    So it is up to you, did he see it or did he not? I take the word of Jesus that he did.
     
  7. Daniel David

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    I thought the judgment was his coming in clouds in a mythical way.
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.


    Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power,

    DD says,"No you won't!"

    Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven

    DD says," No you won't!"

    And you call me a heretic.

    Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud , and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

    So was that mystical?

    Ps. 18: 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
    10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind

    So was that "coming" physical? Did He ride a cherub? Or is this more mysticism.

    I have a feeling the 1st century Jews, Caiaphus in particular, understood what Jesus was saying. His mind wasn't corrupted with western thought.
     
  9. Bro Tony

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    GH,

    Do you hold to the understanding that Jesus' second coming happened in 70AD, and that the teaching concerning the second coming refers only to the judgment on Jerusalem through Titus.

    What about what the two angels said in Acts 1:11, "...This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." Do you not believe in the literal, physical return of Christ. That is the orthodox view of the second coming, not some mystical coming in judgment, where he never really comes.

    My question still remains, I find it hard to believe that Caiaphas was alive in 70AD. Does anyone have any concrete info on this?

    Bro Tony
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    All conjecture trying to uphold a failed view of preterism, Tony. But it is fun to try to visualize!
     
  11. Bro Tony

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    Dr Bob,

    It certainly seems that way because no preterist has yet been willing to answer my questions.

    Bro Tony [​IMG]
     
  12. Plain Old Bill

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    He served as high priest from 18-36 ad. Since the high priests were the elders of the priestly group that would suggest he did not live much beyond 36 A.D. when he was deposed.
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

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    Also it is said he died in his 60's from what I can dig up.Based on the bones of a 60 year old man found in his tomb.
     
  14. Glory Bound

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    I find the preterist view interesting, but I have no idea of what the actually truth is. Too many ways to interpret to be able to say for sure.

    As far as Caiaphas... Did Jesus say that Caiaphas would not die before seeing His return? Perhaps Caiaphas would indeed see the return... from whatever eternal abode he occupies.

    Just a thought ...
     
  15. Bro Tony

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    Bill,

    Thanks for the information. Could you give me the source it would really be helpful.

    GB

    While full preterism is interesting it has no Scriptural support. One has to jump through alot of hoops to make full preterism even make sense logically much less biblically. They believe the 2nd coming occurred in AD 70, that it was not literal or physical but in God's judgment on Jerusalem through Titus. Matthew 26: 64, Jesus is addressing Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin, He says, "..you will see the Son of Man...coming in the clouds". Now the full preterist does not believe that Caiaphas would see the literal return of Christ, because they deny it, but they do believe that Jesus was saying Caiaphas would see the judgment of Jerusalem that took place in 70 AD. Not possible if Caiaphas died before 70 AD, that would be the death-nail for full preterism. The you Jesus was talking about could not be literally Caiaphas if he was already dead by 70 AD.

    Bro Tony
     
  16. Glory Bound

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    Well, I wouldn't say "no Scriptural support"... it may not have total support, but I don't really think any viewpoint does. I find it interesting because it does answer some of the questions I've wondered about, particularly in Matthew 24. But there are other issues that I still wonder about.

    I'm not taking sides in this debate - I've read too many books, articles and posts where it seems every side can fully explain their views - and yet other sides can refute at least some of them. I don't think we have enough information to fully say for sure - and I don't think God wanted us to know, evidently. It makes for lively conversation, and perhaps an incentive for Bible study, though.

    I do appreciate your thoughts on the subject, Bro. Tony!
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    Very few "full" preterists, since the view is so allegorical and mystical. Most are "partial" preterists, which allows them to pick-and-choose what is prophesied in the Word that was fulfilled in AD70 or still to be fulfilled.

    Such "partialists" REALLY do damage to the Scripture as this eclectic melding of events in various time frames is 100% subjective.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    Yes. Though I came kicking and screaming to this view. I found that the OT backs me up on this.

    How was He taken up? In what manner?
    You are correct that the orthodox view is in opposition to mine.

    Did He really come in the OT when He said He would? Should I show you several verses where He "comes in the clouds" and in Judgement? I think the 1st century Jews would have a clear understanding of these terms.

    Suppose Caiaphus did die prior to AD70. You still have the scribes and elders who were the "YE" Jesus was speaking about.
    You have still not given an alternate interpretation of this verse if it is not speaking of His return. What was He referring too and did Caiaphus see it? What was Jesus talking about?

    I actually find just the opposite to be true. Futurist must deny a lot of clear passages to refute preterism.

    Dr. Bob , DD and others are quick to point out preterism is wrong, but when it comes to dealing with the difficult scriptures they are strangely absent. Or maybe its not so strange.


    Now perhaps you would like do deal with some verses that others will not or can not do.

    Matt. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    Who are the "you" and "Ye"

    Compare this with Matt. 23 when Jesus is talking to the Pharasies.

    Matt 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:


    Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.28 Verily I say unto you , there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Who are the "you" and "they" that would see His coming and judgement in vs.27 and His Kingdom in vs. 28?


    Luke 23: 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people, and of women who bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children .29 For behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck.30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us .

    How does a futurist view these scriptures? What does it mean to you?

    A Preterist uses scripture, not hoops, to discover the fulfillment.

    Rev 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the Lamb:17 for the great day of their wrath is come ; and who is able to stand?

    What did the Daughters of Jerusalem see? They saw the Roman army come and kill them and destroy their city, Temple, and the Old Covenant access to God.

    Malachi 31 Behold, I send my messenger , and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.2 But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap:

    Who is the messanger to come?

    Mal 4: 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come .

    Who is this Elijah? What is this terrible day?

    Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come

    Jesus clearly states that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come as prophesied. I'm sure futurist have a problem with this because its not the "physical" Elijah. Would you consider this "mystical" or "allegoric"?
    So John the Baptist shows up, so what is the "great and terrible day" that was to come after him? Or do you put a 2000 year gap between the two events?
     
  19. Bro Tony

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    GH,

    While you will allow me time to look at all your Scripture references I will quickly share with you how I deal with some you have mentioned.

    The matter of Elijah and the prophecy of Malachi. Clearly, John the Baptist was a type of Elijah, the Scriptures confirm this. Certainly, you don't believe him to be Elijah. You will remember that Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration. The "Elijah" that will come before the great and terrible day of the Lord is, I believe a type, just as John was.

    As for Matthew 16:28--all three of the synoptic gospels record this promise just prior to the occurance on the Mount of Transfiguration. It is also correct to translate this word "Kingdom" as royal spendor. That promise I believe was fulfilled for the some of them there on the mount. Only six days later this took place.

    You like other full preterist I have talk with seem to have a problem with a "2000 Year gap" I don't. In God's timing there is little difference in the 2000 year gap I believe in and the 40 you choose to believe in.

    I don't have no problem with using Rev 6:16 in the fulfillment of what Jesus said to the women in Luke 23: 27-30, I don't believe it has been fulfilled yet. I would be hard pressed to believe it has been fulfilled in 70AD and then John some 20 years later speak of it a prophecy rather than history. I Know, you don't believe that Revelation was written in 90AD or so, you can't because if you accept that your preterism becomes meaningless.

    I often wonder how every eye will see Him if He did not nor does not literally come. I hope this helps some, I know you won't agree and I am sure no matter what is said you or I have a different view of it.

    God Bless
    Bro Tony
     
  20. Bro Tony

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    GH

    While we are at it you still have not dealt properly with my original question. When did Caiaphas die? You say it doesn't matter maybe he is speaking about some of the other priest or scribes. Read the text, Jesus is directly answer Caiaphas' question and speaking directly to him. Matthew 26: 57-65.

    If Caiaphas died before you proposed date of "Jesus' return" 70 AD and Jesus said that Caiaphas would see him. Then he could not be talking about an 70 AD return and Caiaphas seeing Him with his eyes. It makes yours and every other full preterist view on terms like "you" and "this generation" suspect when it comes to understanding Jesus prophecying His return.
    Bro tony
     

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