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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 29, 2011.
was it really just past 200 years than?
When Paul wrote about it and then Christ reienforced it with Revelation 3:10
Long before Darby or Scofield.
Here are some examples of those who held and proclaimed a pre-trib view BEFORE 1830 (other than John Darby 1800-1882)
Joseph Mede (1586-1638);
Edward Bickersteth (1786-1850);
James H. Frere (1779-1866);
William Cuninghame (1775-1849); amoung various others.
Remember that the pre-trib is only slightly younger than the also new-on-scene, Covenant theology.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
But, what of Christ's other words?
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Great, did not realise this was held and taught so long ago.
Most of the time you discuss this doctrine, people against it always play the "was not known until the cult of darby" brought it in the Church!
even among baptists, strange how this biblical doctrine seems to be on the wane!
I'll be out of pocket for about a week. You can see in other threads how I answered this but if this is still opne in a week I will answer you.
Hot - Call the Fire Dept.!
[Spotted the following on the web. Any reactions to it?]
(The "Pre-1830" revisionists, the ones like Thomas Ice who value "history" more than the Bible when defending the pretrib rapture, are seemingly smarter than scholars like Darby, Scofield, and Walvoord - none of whom ever found any pretribber before 1830! Enjoy the following which I found on Google. Also Google "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart" if you've quickly assumed that she did not teach a pretrib rapture.)
Pretrib Rapture Pride
Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice's mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn't find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 - and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers "the early pretribulationists" (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including "Pseudo-Ephraem" and a "Rev. Morgan Edwards," taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist's arrival as the only "imminent" event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an "imminent" pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards' historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google historian Dave MacPherson's "Deceiving and Being Deceived" for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read "pretrib" into phrases like "before Armageddon," "before the final conflagration," and "escape all these things"!
BTW, the KJV translators' other writings found in London's famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don't have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib "proof" in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up "Famous Rapture Watchers" (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn't flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby "explanatory notes" in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield's criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book "The Praise of Folly" which is available online.
Biola University's doctrinal statement says Christ's return is "premillennial" and "before the Tribulation." Although universities stand for "academic freedom," Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases - non-essentials the founders purposely didn't include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a "Ph.D" issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn't authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he's working on another "Ph.D" via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice's scholarliness, Google "Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "be careful in polemics - Peripatetic Learning," and "Walvoord Melts Ice." Also Google "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)" - featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 "End Times Passover" blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include "The Unoriginal John Darby," "X-raying Margaret," "Edward Irving in Unnerving," "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Secrets," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," and "Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism" - most from the author of "The Rapture Plot," the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
(Postscript: For another jolt or two Google "The Background Obama Can't Cover Up.")
There are traces of a pre-tribulational rapture in some early patristic sources, but the early churches never accepted the view. Eschatologically it isn't part of their scheme nor something that they would have ever considered.
The lack of a substantive pre-tribulational rapture teaching the earliest churches is, imho, a big mark against the view along with the lack of NT evidence for the view.
Some folks will complain that the view was made anathema in the early church and the teachings/writings were burned. Well, that doesn't work since there were other things that were declared the same and we've (slowly) found accumulations of their works. Think Nag Hammadi here.
The only thing that comes close to the view until, really, Darby and Scofield is this Chialism which is still disputed. But that is closer to historical premillennialism than anything else.
Do you in all cases equate what the "early church fathers" thought as being theologically correct?
We can easily find scripture to support a post-tribulational second coming, that are clear and unequivocal.
I haven't been able to find such scriptures for a pre-trib rapture that leave no doubt as to what they are saying.
No, but it is important to consider what those closest to the actual teachings and direct spiritual descendants of Christ's disciples taught.
If there is, for instance, widespread support for a pre-tribulational rapture which was then removed from teaching by some synod or council then that is significant.
Another example is helpful too: the earliest communities of Christians, for at least the first 350 years following the resurrection of Jesus, believed that baptism was for adults following conversion by immersion. That teaching shifted at about 350 due to a number of circumstances. Within several generations the teaching had moved from the above practice to infant baptism throughout the established churches. Now that kind of data is important.
There are other examples of course. One of those which is troubling is the view of the earliest churches about the nature of communion elements. Almost to a church the earliest churches believed in transubstantiation (or something like that...they didn't call it that) concerning the elements. Now I don't buy that theology, however the existence of that belief from a very early stage should give us pause.
It is the same with this view. The development of doctrine, particularly eschatologically, is important to note and how it arose in the teachings of Darby and Scofield in particular is more a source of their times than, perhaps, the actual biblical testimony.
That's a long answer to basically say what I did in my first sentence: no, but it is important.
Thanks for the response. My whole belief in end times during my early adult years was books like those written by Hal Lindsey and others. Over the years, after reading and rereading Matthew, Daniel, Revelation and others, I lean more towards the post trib, but not set in stone. This idea of the tribulation not being a seven year period but just a general time of trouble, is brand new to me, and have no idea where that concept will lead. I think your example of baptism is particularly striking, but the one of transsubstitution kind of counters that.
Tom...The "second coming" IS post-tribulational....as a matter of fact!! It is the still-living saints being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:17) after those that were asleep (dead in the grave) were taken (the "rapture") that us pre-tribbers embrace. It is a clear teaching of the Word of God and it is NOT the "second coming" when Christ physically returns to earth with (hallelujah!) us! Both days will undoubtedly be great and awesome to behold.:thumbs: I guess you could say...in a manner of speaking thatus Pre-Tribbers ARE Post-Tribbers Too!!! We just don't believe the "rapture" and the "second-coming" are the same thing......because scripturally speaking...THEY AREN'T!
Interesting, but his quote sounds Mid-trib instead,
"...because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium,..."
Unless he starts his millennium at the midpoint of the tribulation, which doesn't make sense to me.
But, according to today's commonly accepted definition of "pretrib" and "midtrib", he would be a midtrib, correct? Or, does he see ALL of the seven years actually happening in just 3.5 years?
Okay, so "yes", he believed that what is now commonly see as 7 years, he fit it all into 3.5 years. So, it sounds like he sees his 3.5 years split into two halves of a 1.75years of relative peace and then a 1.75years of really bad stuff and that the church is raptured out before the start of the 1.75years of peace.
"the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium."