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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Nov 3, 2011.
At conception, birth, or at time of first "known" willful sin?
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalms 51:5 KJV
When did you Receive The Sin nature?
It comes as standard equipment with a human being. None emerge from the assembly line without it.
This is the biblical response, along with romans 3:23, and romans 5.
This is it exactly right....seems simple.
I was born "in" a hospital, but that did not make me a doctor.
Another version says, "brought forth" in sin. It's speaking of environment, so when it says, shapen in iniquity or brought forth, it is "where" he was born, a world filled with sin.
What he said ^
should be noted that sin nature doesn't mean sinner, it means all humanity is under the curse and cannot avoid sinning as Christ did.
how/why did Jesus avoid sinning?
Could it because He had no sin nature, while all the rest of us do?
Both the sin nature and designation "sinner" occurred at conception.
Jesus avoided sinning because 1. He was not born with a sin nature; therefore He did not possess a disposition towards sin. 2. Because He is God, Jesus could not act contrary to His nature. Sin would be contrary to God's holiness.
If we are born with a nature to sin, then why did we feel guilty and ashamed when we sinned, even before we believed on Christ?
I received Christ when I was 11 years old, but I can distinctly remember feeling guilty and ashamed when I did wrong years before this.
Why? If it was my nature to sin, why did I feel I had done something wrong? Why did I feel guilty and ashamed?
And why do we tell our children it is wrong to lie and steal if by nature they are sinners? Is it wrong for a dog to bark, or a cat to meow?
Except for Christ our Lord.
While sinful man is dead in his trespasses and sin, he still has an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong. We see this with Cain in Genesis 4, who was warned by God Himself to resist the temptation to sin. It is witnessed in Genesis 6 when God was ready to announce the flood:
Genesis 6:5 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Because He is 100% God while 100% man.
You can have the nature of sin residing within you, and can still choose to be a "good person", and be charitable to others, or can become adolph Hitler!
Still want to let there be objective right/wrong!
It seems a contradiction to say we have only a natural tendency to sin and at the same time an intuitive knowledge of right and wrong. If our imaginations are only evil continually, how could we even be aware of evil? We would simply operate by instinct like the animals.
Now, I do not disagree with Gen 6:5, God's word is true, and actually supports what you would expect of man if he has a sin nature. That said, Noah was an exception.
I believe Gen 6:12 clarifies verse 5. This verse says all flesh had CORRUPTED his way upon the earth. The definition of corrupt means to go from a good state to evil state, to spoil, to pervert, to deteriorate... But it always carries the meaning of something that started in a pure state, and then was perverted or altered to an evil state.
Taking verse 12 in connection with verse 5 we understand men were not always so evil. The scriptures speak of people having a seared conscience, a conscience that has been burned by continuous sin so that it becomes senseless, like burned scar tissue that lacks nerves and thus can feel no sensation and is "past feeling".
What I am saying is the scriptures do not teach we originate evil, but BECOME evil.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are all become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
How can you disobey your nature? Your nature is all you know. If it is your nature to be evil, you would not feel guilty for sin, nor should you. You are simply being what you are.
How can we tell a homosexual his lifestyle is wrong if it is natural? Don't we argue it is unnatural? How can it be unnatural if we are sinners by nature? That is a contradiction of logic. The same would be with lying, stealing, murder, etc... If we are sinful by nature, these would all be natural acts. In fact, doing good would be unnatural and a violation of how God made us. Don't we call some sins "sin against nature"? If a man lies with a beast, we call this unnatural and a sin against nature. But if we are sinners by nature this would be a purely natural act.
The fact that man recognizes this as unnatural proves we do not have a sin nature.
Rom 2:26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Paul shows here that men know it is unnatural for a woman to be with another woman. But if we are all born with a sinful nature this would be perfectly natural.
GREAT question. Knowing right and wrong does not mean our moral capability is operating at full capacity. Look at Romans 1:
Romans 1:18-23 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
God's moral law (the knowledge of right and wrong) is part of man's DNA. Remember, man was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). Not in God's physical image but in God's moral image. Man was created a sentient being capable of moral action. That moral capacity was corrupted at the Fall, but it wasn't eliminated. In Romans 1 Paul is writing about the unsaved, "those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." In verse 21 he writes, "even though they knew God..." This knowledge was not to the level of saving knowledge (belief, faith).
Well, he certainly was an anomaly. Of all the people alive at that time it was Noah who was selected to build the ark. But Noah was not without his own sinful corruptions. He allowed himself to get drunk, which is a sin (Gen. 9:18;Eph. 5:18). Also, Noah may very well have been saved prior to the flood.
Unsaved men have a God given conscience that all though affected by the fall, still functions ,thats why they know and have a sense of guilt over sin.
men are image bearers although the fall has badly distorted the image.
In regeneration we are being made, or formed ,and restored as the true image bearer......keeping the 10 commandments by the grace of God...
Love to God...Love to neighbor rom13
If anything was affected in the fall, it was the physical world, including man's body. The only moral attribute shown was man gained the knowledge of good and evil, which is not evil because God said "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". This CANNOT be evil, as there is no evil in God.
So, there is nothing showing man received an evil moral nature at the fall.
If you read the scriptures, it is the flesh that tempts man to sin, while the spirit or mind can desire good. It was Eve's flesh that was aroused by Satan's temptation, the lust of the flesh- looked good for food, the lust of the eyes- pleasant to the eyes, and the pride of life- desired to make one wise. Eve had these fleshly desires BEFORE the fall (Gen 3:6).
But after the fall, we see the spirit of man can still will or desire to do good.
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
This was before the apostles received the Holy Spirit, so Jesus is obviously speaking of their human spirit, and said it was willing to be obedient, but the flesh was weak.
Paul said likewise:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Paul is speaking from the perspective of an unregenerate man here, (unless you believe he is saying it is impossible for a regenerate man to do good), and says his spirit WILLS to do good, but he cannot find a way to perform it.
The scriptures do not show total depravity as Calvinism understands it, it shows that unregenerate man can will to do good as I have shown in two examples.