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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Frogman, Oct 16, 2002.
When and why did Abram leave his country, from his kindred and his father's house?
Probably around 2200 BC and because God told him to.
What does this have to do with the topic of this forum? This seems better placed somewhere else. I will give you a little time to make your case for it being here before I move it to a more appropriate forum.
Thank you, Pastor Larry, for your consideration.
The fault is mine for not being clear, but I wanted to initiate thought among the brethren.
Gen. 12.1: "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
The connection is such: Abram did not seek to know God, before hearing the call of God.
Hope this clears up any earlier confusion on the pertinance of the subject.
God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Argument from silence.
I have had this conversation before, the bible says no such thing concerning Abrahams walk with god. The closest infrence as to why god called on him to leave is because his family was beginning to worship false Gods. Abraham had not. He was already considered a servant of god.
Where is this inference?????
This is an assumption of yours and not a biblical one..you have no way of knowing that Abraham did not seek God before the Lord spoke to him... as a matter of Fact the Lord says that
"..He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him"
So it is entirely possible and probably true from what God says that Abraham was seeking God and the truth.
One point though is that Abraham was NOT saved born agin but was a sinner dead in trespasses and sin..NOT regenerated at all...and yet HIS belief in God was counted unto him for rightousness. (Rom.4:3)
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed;.."
kind of puts a nice little crack in the ole Calvinist theory of unregerate man not being able to exercise faith in the Lord because he is Totally inable to do so due to his depraved nature.
On seeking God..
The Lord specifically commands men to seek God.
"seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near" (Isa 55:6)
"For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel, seek ye me and ye shall live" (amos 5:4)
"Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgement; seek rightousness, seek meekness: It may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger" ( Zep 2:3)
again on seeking God..
God set the bounds of the nations so they would seek him (acts 17:26-27) The Bible even enjoins men to "seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually" (1 chr. 16:11) but not only are men commanded to seek him, God declares that those who do seek him would find him (Jer. 29:13-14) and that he would reward them "which diligently seek him" (heb 11:6)
The Bible says that men are blessed who seek God "with the whole heart" (psa.119:2) In fact, it is said to be evil not to seek God (2 chr.12:14) and worthy of death (2 chr.15:13)
These commandments to seek God are not in vain "I have spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, seek me in vain: I the LORD speak rightousness, I declare things that are right" (Isa. 45:19)
No calvinist denies the responsibility of man to seek God.
We only recognize the fact that
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom. 8.7
If Abraham was not regenerated, (by experience of the new birth) then he cannot have been saved. If we say this we do change the mind of God.
The Jews of Christ's day also denied that Abraham knew Him. John 8.56-59
In denying the depravity of man, we support the "righteousness" of man, whether we aim for this end or not, the result is a failure to recognize the works of Christ in eternity.
The Bible no where implies Abraham was a "servant" of God before his calling to leave his own country.
Everywhere God demands worship from all men, true.
The enmity exists in man, not God, the enimity is destroyed, the new creature is created, not by the will of man, but of God alone.
This is not a deterrant, for we know not who is going to receive, yet God knows.
Because we do not know does relieve us of any responsibility nor duty to seek God.
The individual who seeks God provides an outward showing of God dealing inwardly. Even as Abram exhibited in leaving his own country.
Even as Abram exhibited in receiving his new name Abraham.
Why do not all men find Him? We are certain he is always present. Psalm 139
because they have rejected God read Pro.1:28
That is an untrue statement.
Incrediable!! Read it again..the Jews didn't believe that Jesus was God. Jesus equated himself with God and that's why they were going to stone him.. Had nothing to do with Abraham at all..
The Bible says "He is a REWARDER to them that diligently seek him" (Heb 11:6)
God told Abraham that he would get a land as an inheritance..I would call that a reward.
Abraham was NOT regenerated..Yes I know you can't grasp that fact..perhaps you ought to get to know your old testament a little better..
NOONE in the Old testament was regenerated..NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON..Noah wasn't..abraham wasn't..Moses wasnt..The Blood of bulls and goats couldn't wash away sin..the Holy spirit didn't indwell the people..it came and went that is why they had to sacrafice animals all the time so they could attone for their sins. Why do you think they went to Abrahams bossom and not heaven when they died?? Because they were not redeemed by Christs blood.
Just a quick question......What about Elijah???
II Kings 2:11
Warm Christian greetings!
People do not naturally seek God - Romans 3 v 11.
People will only seek God when He draws them to do so, John 6 v 44.
Robert J Hutton
shilo, what in the world are you talking about?
Jesus rebuked a teacher of Israel, a pharisee for not knowing about the new birth. Read John 3.
You probably mean indwelling. Indwelling and regenerating are two different functions of the Spirit. They are not the same.
This was probably just an oversight but the Holy Spirit is a "He" not an "it".
[ October 17, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
Where was it that Elijah recieved the Lord Jesus Christ as his saviour? Your not regenerated until you are born again..
REGENERATION..making something again.
That goes for Enoch to.
That may be true..however men ARE ABLE to do so. God Commanded that Men seek him. he said it's evil not to seek him.(2 chr.12:14) and worthy of death (2 chr.15;13)
the reason men don't seek God is Not because the aren't able it's because "The Wicked, through the pride of his coutenance, will not seek after God:God is not in his thoughts." (psa.10:4)
As for only seeking God when God draws them to do so is incorrect. we are instructed by the Lord to "draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you"
why don't you say what you really mean by that verse? and while your at it put the verse in it's correct context.
what are YOU talking about preach the word???
Are you saying that men in the old testament were saved the same way in the old testament as they are in the new???
Indwelling...Holy sprit is sealed in side you regeneration.. you are made again..new birth..
you dont get the Indwelling of the Holy spirit UNTIL you are born again. Eph 1:13
If I may cut in here , man has always been saved and will always be saved by the grace of God. There is no other way to be saved but by the grace of God. Man cannot save himself in any form or method. There is no other way to be born again, born from above, except by the Holy Spirit's power at any time during the earth's history.
Scripture makes several statements about man's ability that appears to contradict your statement that all men are able to do so. Consider:
John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Romans 8.7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Romans 8.8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Clearly, all of these verses testify to an inability on the part of man to come to God, to please God, to even understand the significance of the message. Yet your statement seems in direct contradiction to Scripture. How do you reconcile your position with what Christ and Paul say?