When does God strictly enforce His Soveriegnty?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, Feb 11, 2014.

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Does God always strictly enforce His sovereignty?

  1. He strictly enforces it only prior to salvation

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. He strictly enforces it before and after salvation

    66.7%
  3. He never strictly enforces it, man does have some repsonibility both bfore salvation and after

    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    Does God strictly enforce His sovereignty at all times?

    Does God strictly enforce His sovereignty only before salvation?

    Does God never strictly enforce His sovereignty?


    By strict enforcement what I mean is God must be in complete control with no will of man involved.
     
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Wow, beg much to be abused, Rev?

    [​IMG]

    This should be interesting. I'll start it off by saying that for us to claim we can possibly understand to the fullest the subtleties and undercurrents of a holy God shaping our will to conform to His, we engage in utter folly. His word is absolutely clear that God knows the future.
    Matthew 8, NASB
    8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." ​
    Yet that does not mean that we should not ask, does it? Therefore there must be a reason for asking. I would submit that it is so we can voice for ourselves, hear ourselves, actually finding our desires to be conformed to His.

    He also has total sovereign control over all things.
    Colossians 1
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. ​
    The Bible also says that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him, and that we are held responsible for our actions. Romans 3:19 says that is "so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God ..." We cannot beging to comprehend, with a finite mind, how these principles work together. It is beyond our capabilities.

    People can take one of two extremes in regard to this question. There are those who insist the "know" how it is and what God's own doctrine states, highlighting the sovereignty of God to the point they make humans little more than robots, doing what the Great Programmer has set them to do. Others stress free will so excessively that their vision of God doesn't have complete control and/or knowledge of all things.

    Neither of these positions is biblical. The truth is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that our wills choose Him.
    1 John 4
    19 We love, because He first loved us.

    John 15
    16a "You did not choose Me but I chose you ...​
    Oh, but wait. Don't stop there, because if you do, you might develop a concept that is a false doctrine.
    John 15
    16b " ... and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."​
    What do we see there? He chose them, but before they chose Him, so that His choice of them was entirely free and did not arise from any character, motive, or condition in them. The allusion is to a custom of the Jews, on the reverse of which Christ acted. The disciples chose the master in Jewish tradition, from a choice of two or three, whereas Jesus acted to choose them as His disciples.

    This must be understood, not of election to salvation, but of choice to the office of apostle. In both, Christ was first. He chose them before they chose Him, an act that can never be taken away. He first chose and called them to be His disciples and apostles, to follow Him, preach His Gospel, and become fishers of men; and clothed them with full power and authority to exercise their high office.

    But wait! We aren't apostles, are we? Nope. And therein lies the error of trying to make this verse stand as the irrevocable, resolute, iron-clad sovereignty doctrine that excludes us as having any free will. Doesn't work for us, because it was not intended for us. God’s sovereignty is supposed to be a comfort to us, not an issue to be concerned about or debate over. We are to live our lives making wise decisions in accordance with God’s Word. There will be no excuses before God for why we may choose to disobey Him. We will have no one to blame but ourselves for our sin, though obviously under His blood, our consequences are lost reward, not lost salvation. We are to worship the Lord, praising Him that He is so wonderful, infinite, powerful, full of grace and mercy -- and yes, sovereign, but not ultimately and uniformly so.
     
    #2 thisnumbersdisconnected, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2014
  3. Van

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    If we define Sovereignty as the dictionary does, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, then everything that occurs is consistent with God's sovereignty. If God does not cause it or allow it, it does not happen.

    Why does the Biblical view of Sovereignty require that God allows rather than causes directly or indirectly all things? Because if God causes all things, He is the author of sin. Now would God cause us to sin, and then punish us for the sin He caused? No way.
     
  4. Benjamin

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    Never, in the sense of to “enforce” would/or even could be in disregard of the will of man for 1) if man had no free will/could not do otherwise (as if God operated by “Deterministic” Sovereign Control/(pre)determining all things) there would be nothing to have to enforce and 2) all God’s (Sovereign) ways involve judgment (God is in “Providential” Sovereign Control of the world) over the volitional creatures He designed with sense, reason and intellect.

    IOWs a distinction needs to be made about the type of Sovereignty. I’m sure God is unwavering and perfect in His strict and constant “Providential” Sovereign Control over His volitional creatures whereby He Sovereignly manages them. The will of man is involved or there would be no judgments to make in the matter…

    Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
     
  5. Judith

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    There is no such thing. He is sovereign all the time, period. It is impossible to be lightly sovereign and strictly sovereign. You are either sovereign or you are not. There has never been nor will there ever be anyone who has control above God. God is in control in the mist of man's will. Allowing choice is not the loss of control or lack of or lessoning of sovereignty. We could not sin if He was not sovereign to allow it.
     
    #5 Judith, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2014
  6. Revmitchell

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    Maybe, but when silly doctrines lead to such things as two salvations then it needs to be addressed.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Perhaps the most ludicrously dumb statement made on BB ...

    ... in the last 45 minutes.

    [​IMG]

    You realize you just said God enables our sin, right?


    Great googly-moogly! Where do we get them?
     
    #7 thisnumbersdisconnected, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2014
  8. salzer mtn

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    If God is not sovereign at all times then this would mean he is not in full control at all times, so this would mean at times he is not in control he would not be God because he would be in subjection to that something at that time that was in control when God isn't, so therefore that something would be god part time.
     
  9. Judith

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    If God was not sovereign than what we do would not be sin because He would not be in control and we would be the sovereign ones with no sin. You can only sin against sovereignty not the absence of it.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    No one has suggested that in this thread.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    If God strictly enforces His sovereignty then there is no opportunity to resist the HG.
     
  12. Greektim

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    Let me ask it this way, when Scripture speaks of God's sovereignty, does it ever say that he has authority and chooses when to use it? Or is it that he has and always uses it? I think you will find the latter is the case in every situation. Start w/ Prov. 16 if you don't believe me.

    So God doesn't enforce his authority as if it is a switch he can turn on and off. His authority is like any other attribute. He is in control at all times and in all situation... ALL SITUATION.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    No one in this thread is arguing any different.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    One thing this thread shows is everyone puts their own little nuances on doctrine that it is difficult to have a discussion without talking past one another.

    We cannot just make a clear statement without someone trying to nuance it to death to fit their own worldview.
     
  15. Judith

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    Sovereighty does not come in doses. It is always the same and always in force at the same rate.
     
  16. Benjamin

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    So simply make the distinction of the Divine Sovereignty you speak of is deterministic control over the will the men or providential control over the will of the men.

    You opened the thread, get rid of the ambiguity in your question. The reason people are talking past each is because you haven't defined the term.

    Some love to scream that "God is Sovereign!" but how do they define when it comes down to it? Does "control" mean He has to "determine" the will and thereby the actions of men?

    You will rarely find consistency with those who claim Sovereign control as deterministic because they will back-pedal as soon as the issue of responsibility for evil arises. Rev, you've merely played into the game of ambiguity concerning this matter...
     
  17. Benjamin

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    Does God control the motivation of a man to do evil?
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    Sovereignty should be understood by everyone equally. Just because everyone nuances it doesn't mean I have played into their game. Sigh they will find more nuances I am afraid regardless of how it is defined.
     
  19. Benjamin

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    That's like saying any vague term should be understood equally and then complaining when people don't see it equally the distinctions haven't been made.

    You want a direct answer you need to ask a direct question.

    BTW, do you think all women are beautiful? :laugh:
     
  20. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher
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    Direction?

    Rev. Mitchell

    Would you like to limit this discussion to a particular context?

    All I can say at the moment is God allows people to sin at will, which presents the perception of non-sovereignty, and at the same time God's Eternal Will continues and His Will is in progress at all times; so He is always sovereign. As such, salvation has no bearing on that much of it.

    You mentioned 'silly doctrines' and 'two salvations'; that needs addressing. Perhaps a bit more direction?
     

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