When Does Life And Soul Begin?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ralph III, Jul 28, 2006.

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WHEN DOES LIFE AND SOUL BEGIN?

  1. I believe my life and soul began at conception.

    29 vote(s)
    72.5%
  2. I believe my life began at conception but my soul at another point.

    4 vote(s)
    10.0%
  3. I believe my life and soul began at some point after conception.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  1. Ralph III

    Ralph III
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    HELLO ALL!


    This thread is a little bit of a continuation from "Bush vetoes stem cell research"; But more specifically when you believe life begins and you gain your soul.
    Some of the scriptures are the same as more than adequate I feel, whereas some versus are different. Please provide your opinion and/or scripture and hopefully vote.


    I was just a little surprised at a few Christian responses within that thread. Much dealt with the morality of using embryonic stem cells but also dealt with when life actually begins. Some feeling human life only begins at some point after conception or Bible silent, while some seemingly giving real value to life after actual birth.
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    I believe Life begins at Conception in addition to your Soul. This based upon what I feel the Bible most assuredly says. With no conception you have no life. With conception you have life!
    (If you like, go here for pictures of human developement and explanations, or google) http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml


    God gives great reverence for life upon conception, and throughout the entire pregnancy! It is arguable there is more celebration for conception then birth itself, or at least equally celebrated. Such can be seen throughout the Bible with women who were finally able to conceive who were unable to beforehand.

    1Sam1 is the story of Hannah who could not conceive and suffered much and great humiliation for it. She fervently prayed to God as “the Lord had closed her womb”. Until the Lord blessed her from prayer and she “conceived and bore a son, and called his name Samuel". See also Gen. 29:31-30:24, Gen.20:17-18 etc.

    The Lord has great reverence for those within the womb and are referred to as "children", "babe", "son", "fruit of womb", and "Lord" as with Jesus, etc.

    At the time the Angel tells Mary she will soon conceive Jesus; She is also told that Elizabeth, her relative, is "6 months" pregnant with a "son". Emphasis added.
    Luke 1:36-37 "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible."

    The Lord refers to the child within the womb as a "son". God gives great reverence to the unborn as shown here at six months. It is not referred to as fetus or thing.

    BUT WAIT:
    Great reverence for the child is given even before that and to 5 months. Luke 1:24 "Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying "Thus the Lord has dealt with me, in the days when He looked on me, to take away my reproach among people"
    Elizabeth is giving great thanks to the Lord for the child she bears. Whom the Lord had promised them and for removing her shame. As felt by women who were "barren". Luke 1:13 “...Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness....He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb".

    AGAIN WAIT:
    When Mary went to visit Elizabeth, Mary would have only been a few weeks pregnant!
    Elizabeth, 6 months or so, shows great reverence for the life within Mary. For good reason of course!
    Luke 1:41-44 "And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." These are two very happy women and as seen with Mary's song.

    Mary would have only been a few weeks pregnant upon her arrival at Elizabeth’s. Because Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant before Mary had even experienced divine conception. Mary stayed with Elizabeth for 3 months before leaving just before Elizabeth gave birth. Mary now being three months pregnant or so herself. Luke 1:56-57 "And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her house. Now Elizabeth’s full time came for her to be delivered, and she brought forth a son”.
    --------------- ---------------- ----------------------

    Luke 1:18-21 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit...."Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit”.

    Luke 2:7 “And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn…(2:14) “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!

    Luke 2:21 “And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. It would seem you are who you are at conception! Not some point after conception as in a few weeks, 3 months, 5 months, 6 months or actual birth.


    Exodus 21:22-24 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye..

    Psalm 127:3-5 “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;

    Isaiah 44:24 “Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things.

    1tim. 6:13 “I urge you in the sight of god who gives life to all things”.


    :wavey: Please remember to vote if you like.
     
    #1 Ralph III, Jul 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2006
  2. TheRev

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    Life begins at conception and it stands to reason the same would be for the soul.
     
  3. genesis12

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    Life / soul begin at conception. It is tragic, saddening beyond measure, to see Christians voting any other way. Just another indicator that folks who post in these forums do so from the flesh, not the spirit.
     
  4. El_Guero

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    Sad but true.
     
  5. LeBuick

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    I don't see one I agree with so I guess I don't get to vote. I believe life begins at birth. Soul I will have to think about but I believe one is born into life.
     
  6. Ralph III

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    Hello LeBuick,
    I am sorry I left off a voting possibility for you buddy. But I did consider you and knew the opportunity was there for people to clarify.

    Anyhow part of this post was in hopes of asking you a few things more questions and to clarify. Tomorrow, ok. Thanks, Ralph:wavey:
     
  7. KenH

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    Most people, myself included, are not one issue voters.

    On the topic of this thread, I believe that one's life and one's soul begin at conception.
     
  8. Ralph III

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    Hello LeBuick,
    This is a follow up from your last post in former thread. First I am terribly sorry to hear of the loss your family endured, with the complications of your Mother’s pregnancy.
    I just wanted to get a better understanding of your views.
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    No problem! I am sure John appreciated the great compliment though, ha.

    Amen on God never being wrong!
    Let me clarify just a little.
    A) I say God gives great reverence and value to the life in the womb starting from conception! As the Bible clearly shows this. With the Lord referring to such as a “child”, “babe”, “son”, “thee”, etc. etc, -AND– warns if a man should harm a “child” within the womb, he shall suffer severe punishment, “eye for eye, life for life.......”.
    B) The fact God gives great reverence to the life even before “conception”, as in future tense, is the point! He values the child and life at the point of “conception” as scripture notes.

    Scripture clearly shows God values life from conception and while the child is growing within the womb. This is not a future life! He does not value the life and child only upon birth. If God see’s the unborn as a “child”, “babe”, “son”, “thee” etc, etc; Who are we to see it differently??



    LeBuick. Yes God knows what you will be even before conception. However without being repetitive, scripture has been presented which clearly states the value of life while(present tense) within the womb. Scripture has been presented which clearly states and calls the unborn in the womb as(present tense) “child”, “babe”, “son” etc., etc.



    I strongly disagree there is no Biblical proof, as we are who we are at conception. It only bothers me in that some people, not necessarily you, will use such belief to degrade the value of the unborn. I do however believe we as Christians should always seek the truth and feel you are the type who allows the Lord to lead the way. What I have learned is there are those who will never come to accept certain things. No matter what scripture is presented because they allow their politics or causes to lead the way, at times.

    We are who we are at conception, as the Lord see’s it. Birth or being born is simply what it is. It is the child being welcomed into the world! Not the child being welcomed by God! God accepted you as his creation and living long before such!





    Job was a man intimately close to God and highly favored by him. But one who as we know was severely tested. At his lowest points he wished he had not even been conceived, or at least died at birth or had been still born.

    Again Job in asking why God tests him so and wishes to destroy him? When it was God who created him within the womb.

    Bro Curtis's verse was sufficient.
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    Again LeBuick I am sincerely sorry for this loss. I hope the Lord was with your family and Mother during this time for comfort. I also do believe you will one day see your sister. :praying: My question is with the following statements in regards to this.

    Isn't the first sentence, about a life that never lived, contradictory from the previous sentence? Do you mind explaining what you mean?
    Also "life" and "living" is much different than being "born" or "birth". God see's you as living and being a life while in the womb. Born or birth is just when your welcomed to the world. Is this something to think upon?

    Anyhow have a great one, Ralph:wavey:
     
    #8 Ralph III, Jul 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2006
  9. LeBuick

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    First, there is no scripture that proves our difference one way or the other. The same scriptures you say prove your view I could say proves mine.

    You see a seed as a tree, I see it as a potential tree. Your view is in line with one of the greek philosophers but I can't remember which. My view is because all seeds don't make it to tree-hood.

    In like manner, all fertilized embryo don't become a life. A person, yes. A son or daughter, yes. Something to love and cherish, yes. A gift from God, yes. A life, I don't think so. This is my view.

    Lastly, when a mother looks at the remains of her son she still says that's her son. Is he alive, no. Is he still her son, yes. This is why I say conceived a son does not mean life. It means the embryo will be a son.

    It's in line with you give birth to a child but "have" a still born. A still born is still a son or daughter, just not alive and was not born.

    ps... My sister lived, she's 41 with 3 kids. I used that story to say abortion may be man's contribution to God's work. God still has the final word. Thanks for caring.
     
  10. Marcia

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    I'm pretty shocked at this statement from a Christian.

    You seem to be trying to make distinctions between stillbirth (the child has died in the womb) and life and person and whatnot.

    But a child in the womb is either alive or dead. If alive, that is an unborn but alive baby/child. The baby does not suddenly become a life or a child when born but is already one in the womb and we can even see that visually pretty early on.

    Living in the womb before birth is just the first stages of development. Birth is another stage; each day, week, and month thereafter are further stages of growth.

    I think the verses posted by Ralph III show clearly that God considers the life of a child in the womb to be a life he created.

    As I said on another thread, conception is how God designed us to come into the world, so how can anyone say that life in the womb is not to be respected and protected?
     
  11. Ralph III

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    Response by Marcia.
    It's unbelievable Marcia! I guess some would tell the Lord to kiss off with such nonsense as “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward..." -or- "Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things.” -or- “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye..
    How dare Christ say this? Who is Christ to tell Christians what to do or believe, as a few seem to proclaim? I guess if it happens, whatever, it must have been God's will? Regardless if seems immoral, evil or contradictory to God's word. Surely it cannot be man's mischief, sin, or even evil.
    Same question I asked and actually got a, happy shout-out! Again, I guess the Lord's word is only good for some, when it fits their definitions and own beliefs. Man-o-Man.

    Take another notion as applied, when necessary to justify actions. "Well if God gave us the Knowledge he must have meant us to use it". Yes God gave us knowledge. But man can use knowledge for good or evil, moral or immoral purposes. They seem to leave that off. God given wisdom is what to strive for!

    Glad to hear your sister survived the abortion LeBuick! I guess man has gotten a lot better at it through the years. Now you can kill the "potential" life, or thing for some, with a pill. Of course it must be taken within a day or so as the "potential" thing grows so fast it cannot be killed after so many hours. For some, knowledge will catch up I guess.

    The rest of us will keep hoping God given wisdom and reverence does!

    Lord help us!:praying:
     
    #11 Ralph III, Aug 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2006
  12. LeBuick

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    Not sure what about the statement "shocked" you, all I am saying is man is trying to be GOD when he invented ways to do abortions. Not sure why that belief is ungodly??? As far as man getting better at it, there are Abortions being performed to this day that live.

    This is your view and I respect that. You are entitled to your view Marcia which is how I left the last thread. I believe one is born into life. Does that make me evil or less saved?

    Ralph III, you knew my views from the other thread yet you sent me a PM asking me to respond to your post. I admit, you got me once so shame on you but I will not respond to your post again. I will pray for you.
     
  13. mcdirector

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    I believe life (with the soul) begins at conception.
     
  14. Marcia

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    LeBuick, sorry if I misunderstood you. But your statement that "abortion may be God's work" sure makes it sound like you think abortion can be okay. How else should I understand it? Haven't you said that you do not think life in the womb is a child or person that is really alive? TTT, it's hard to know what you've said as some of your statements seem ambiguous or contradictory.

    I did not say you were evil or "less saved" or even imply it. I was just surprised. The issue is not your salvation but "when does life begin?" I could care less about using ad hominems. They are mere distractions.
     
  15. LeBuick

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    Read my statement again, I said man's contribution to Gods work. I didn't say abortion is Gods work. Man has tried to contribute to Gods work in many ways, how about choosing Mathias?

    Maybe this is why you find my statements ambiguous or contradictory, is it because you won't openly read what you disagree with? Is it because you read them to find fault as opposed to "trying" to see the other side?
     
    #15 LeBuick, Aug 2, 2006
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  16. Marcia

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    That is not true at all! I really can't get a handle on exactly what you are saying.

    For example, did you or did you not say the following?
    So what are you saying? It sure looks like you are saying that before birth, an unborn child is not alive. Is that what you are saying?

    Do you think abortion is immoral or wrong? Yes or no?
     
  17. LeBuick

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    I think I made that clear, I believe life begins at birth. No contradictions in that statement.

    Yes, I think abortion is immoral and wrong, I just don't call it murder. It does not have to be murder to be imorral or wrong, there are plenty of things that are immoral and wrong that are not "murder".

    Again, no contradictions. It's what I said from the start and i'm still saying the same now. I'm not asking you to accept my view but you should be able to accept the fact that there are some who have views that are different from yours.

    As Pastor said in the two witnesses thread, there are something we just won't know for sure until we get to the kingdom. If it turns out i'm wrong, i'll look for you so I can apologize. Will you do the same?
     
  18. billwald

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    God "said" that the life is in the blood. He didn't say in the seed, in the ovum, in the plant, in the bacterium, in the flower . . . . He said this in the face of the the belief atvthgat time that the male injected a small baby inside the female.
     
  19. Marcia

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    The baby in the womb is just as alive as someone outside the womb. They are not breathing air, but taking in oxygen from the blood because of where they are. The womb is the place for them to grow until they can live outside the womb. That is all. LeBuick, I hope I have not been rude to you. I know you have your views but I passionately disagree with them. I think that life begins at conception -- everything in science and in the Bible point toward that conclusion.

    Before I was a Christian, I took a pregnancy test at a feminist women's health clinic and when I discovered I was pregnant, I immediately made an appointment for an abortion to be done a few days later. I went home and told my son's dad about it and he promised to go with me to the clinic on abortion day.

    That night or the next night (can't recall), my son's dad (who later became my husband and is now my ex-husband) felt restless and got up to meditate in front of the fireplace. This was New Age/eastern meditation stuff. He later came back to bed and woke me up. He said that while he was meditating, he heard a voice or got a distinct impression that said, "Have the child." He told me he thought we should keep the baby and not do the abortion.

    This went against everything normal for us - we were not married, we did not have any money, we were sharing a house with 2 other people and did not even a place to raise a child, and we had never even discussed marriage. But something in me was relieved and I went along with it. This happened 10 yrs. before I was saved.

    I am convinced that the Lord intervened during that meditation and saved my son from being killed by abortion. I told my son about this about 5 yrs. ago and how it shows how much God wanted him to live. :love2:

    If I had had the abortion, a handsome and very smart young man who is alive today would never have been seen or known. He would not have written music, drawn his funny pictures, others would not have known his generosity, wit, or kind spirit, nor would he have been the biggest blessing to his mother than anything else in her life (aside from salvation and knowing Jesus Christ).
     
  20. Baptist in Richmond

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    Not to focus on you specifically, mcdirector, but what do those who hold to this think about in-vitro fertilization?

    If life (with the soul - to usurp mcdirector) begins at conception, what about all of those frozen fertilizated eggs that are left over from this process? Is it murder when they are eventually destroyed?

    Regards to all,
    BiR
     

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