When does the rapture occur?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by sanderson1769, Oct 5, 2006.

  1. sanderson1769

    sanderson1769
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    In my Wednesday night series preaching through the book of Matthew, we were in Matthew 24 tonight, and because of the content of the chapter, I couldn't help but devote the entire sermon to giving an accurate chronology of the book of Revelation and demolishing the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Here is the link to the sermon:

    http://www.faithful wordbaptist. org/page5. html

    Can any pre-tribber sit through the entire sermon and still believe in the pre-tribulation rapture? I don't see how it could be any clearer.

    Sincerely,

    Pastor Steven L Anderson
    Faithful Word Baptist Church
    www.faithfulwordbap tist.org
     
  2. rbell

    rbell
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    did you use a baseball bat?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
     
  3. LeBuick

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    When does the rapture occur? Simple... When the dead in Christ rise!
     
  4. USMC71

    USMC71
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    I agree with that, BUT, Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to and about Israel.
     
  5. USMC71

    USMC71
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    Matthew 24 is in relation to Israel, not the Church.
     
  6. Tom Bryant

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    when does the rapture occur?

    whenever God decides, no sooner, no later.
     
  7. LeBuick

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    Yes, but it's as easy as watching the signs. Jesus said we'll know by the signs. This means when the dead and Christ rise either we missed the earlier sign or that is the sign. Either way, when the dead get up and walk, you better be ready to go.
     
  8. USMC71

    USMC71
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    SOME EVIDENCES OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE- ENJOY!!

    1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.
    2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.
    3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teachings of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.
    4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1st Thessalonians 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.
    5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (i.e.: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.
    6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming. (1st John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.
    7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.
    Nature of the Church

    (Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)
    8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
    9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Romans 5:9; 1st Thessalonians 1:9-10). The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
    10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1st Thessalonians 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)
    11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Revelation 3:10)
    12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
    13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah, etc)
    14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
    15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
    16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.
    17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.
    18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

    The Work of the Holy Spirit

    19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.
    20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.
    21. The "falling away" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
    22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Revelation 6:10)

    The Hermeneutical Argument

    23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truly literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
    24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
    25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2nd Corinthians 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.
    26. The "four and twenty elders" in Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.
    27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Revelation 19:7-10.
    28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Isaiah 65:20-25).
    29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Matthew 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
    30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
    31. The Judgment of Israel (Ezekiel 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
    Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming



    Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.
    The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deuteronomy 4:29-30. Jeremiah 30:4-11, Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel 12:1-2)
    Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
    Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
    In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11.
    There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.
    The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.
    The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."
    Revelation 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Pastor Anderson won't be back on this thread.

    All he wants us to do is build the hit count on his site and listen to his messages. He is trying to sort us all - just watch out for his baseball bat.
     
  10. USMC71

    USMC71
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    Well said, C4K. The question being is, "Can He truly be a Baptist and "not be Dispensational" as his own web-site states?
     
  11. EdSutton

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    As Tweety might say, "I taut I taw a 'Dwive-by' poster tat!"

    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  12. EdSutton

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    And the 'Dwive-by' poster tat had a 'batheball' bat??! :rolleyes: :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #12 EdSutton, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  13. EdSutton

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    Good outline from USMC71! :thumbsup:

    Whether or not you "cawwy a batheball bat"! :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #13 EdSutton, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  14. EdSutton

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    Don't jump to conclusions, C4K! About the time you decide this, sanderson1769 will actually follow up for the second time on a thread! :tonofbricks:He actually did it once before, you know. :rolleyes: :tongue3: :laugh:

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, Oct 5, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2006
  15. tinytim

    tinytim
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    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Now you done gone and done it!!

    My smileys have started rapture practice......... oh, it may look like the wave, but it is actually rapture practice.....

    OR it could be rapture practice at a baseball game!
    [​IMG]
     
  16. USMC71

    USMC71
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    I like the smileys, Can I have one? hehe Oh, I am smiling already!!

    By the way, the outline is not mine, but from a good friend. I could not say it better than he did.
     
  17. EdSutton

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    My only question is how did you get seven - count 'em- seven smilies on one post? I've only been able to get four, recently.

    Ed
     
  18. tinytim

    tinytim
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    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Actually it is only one picture of seven smileys....
    I got it from here.... http://bestsmileys.com/pageindex.htm

    sorta like this one...:1_grouphug: you see there are 5 smileys there.

    We are only allowed to have 4 pictures in each post, but if a picture has more than one smiley in it, it's ok..
    They are contagious....

    Now I've got them all doing "rapture practice"
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  19. webdog

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    Honestly? Yes. I have not changed my view. Have you changed your KJVO stance after having it rebutted here? I don't think so.
     
  20. Tom Bryant

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    You all have way too much timie on your hands! :laugh:
     

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