When Faith counts for righteousness

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by LeBuick, Jan 1, 2007.

  1. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I seem to have backed myself into a cornor in the debate with BobRyan titled is Judaism and Christianity the same. I was hoping someone can tell me what i'm missing.

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    What was Abraham’s faith in?

    It does not say he believed in Christ, it says he "believed God" or Gen says "he believed in the Lord." I've accepted the statement "believed God" was in regards to leaving his kindred, home and how God would make him father of a great nation. He took God at his word. This is up to Gen 15 as we know his later faith with Isaac. This was also prior to his circumcision in Gen 17 which means this is not a "Jewish" statement.

    I believe this means Abraham had faith in Gods Word which pleases God. We all know faith honors God because we have put our trust in Him and because faith honors God, God counts our faith for righteousness. This says we can never be perfectly sinless but we can be righteousness through faith.

    Righteousness as used in verse 3 is said to mean he was justified. Does justified in Gen 15 mean salvation? Was this salvation prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

    If so, please put this in context with this verse? Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
     
  2. PrimePower7

    PrimePower7
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi there.
    Galatians 3 talks about "the Gospel" (3:8) in Abraham's day. If you consider 1:8,9, I believe this is the very Gospel we must believe to be justified (Romans 5:1).

    Hope this helps. Thanks for the thought.
     
  3. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps this is oversimplifying it but there will be no rebels in Heaven.

    And though yes you are justified you must also be sanctified.

    But even then you are not justified if you in heart have not turned away from sin. Because if you were then God would not only be forgiver of sin but also He would be justifier of SIN.... the idea isnt to justifiy SIN...

    Gal:2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.



    Now just stop and read and think about this.... paying particular attention to verses 17 and 18... you dont want to rebuild again that which you destroyed.

    Galatians 2:
    16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    18: For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    19: For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    What too many seem to be missing is that we are supposed to DIE to sin... and the FAITH we have is supposed to be THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD.... NOTICE THAT!! (verse 20)

    Jesus lives in you now.... His faith was the faith that He used to overcome sin. This faith now becomes yours, you are dead, He lives in you and by His faith you now overcome sin.

    So are you living by faith? yes. are you living in sin? no.

    If you are still living in sin then you are saying Christ is the minister of SIN. Which of course He is not.

    Back to my first point. You've got to go to Heaven and there arent going to be a bunch of rebels there to start up the rebellion again. Look at the parable of the Wedding Garment. He checks to see if they have on the White Raiment... to see if they are FIT for Heaven... notice Jesus comes INTO US and we become overcomers? see the last two verses... the White Raiment is the Wedding Garment... church without spot or wrinkle.

    Revelation 3:

    15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
    16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
    17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
    18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    DOETH DOETH DOETH righteousness: not just a false covering of "Christ's righteousness" and then continuing on in sin...

    1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
    1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


    Isaiah 30:
    1: Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
    9: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD

    God doesnt LIE.... He covers us but He also makes us BE righteous... doing righteousness as Jesus does

    Claudia
     
    #3 Claudia_T, Jan 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2007
  4. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you both for your responses and your help.

    Let say more, I believe the Gospel began with Gen 3:15. In this verse God “guarantold” the serpant, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” In this verse God is telling Satan or the serpant that His (Gods) seed (Christ) would deliver the final and fatal blow. Satan is assured he may win some battles but he will not win the war.

    Now with Abraham God begins the manifestation of this promise (if we exclude Noah Ark). Contrary to what the Jews believe, the inheritance or salvation was always intended for all of mankind and not just Israel.

    Genesis 12:3 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    So this is the “Gospel” being manifested and is the “Gospel” Abraham believed in his day. Then in Gen 15:6 God records, “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

    So unless I’m mistaken, Abraham believed that through him all the families of the earth would be blessed. This belief in this future blessing of the world justified Abraham and it was counted as righteousness.

    Claudia, I agree with most of what you posted. So according to this verse, justification is only through Christ. So Abraham was justified by Christ since Christ is the only way we can be justified (saved). This means that this promise, “and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” is Christ??? This promise is the pre-runner to Christ? </scratches head> This is where I get stuck…

    How do we define this statement in relation to Christ? “and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”
     
  5. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Romans 4 is very enlightening concerning this subject.

    Romans 4:1-6 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    --In all the works that Abraham did (look in Heb.11), leaving his country by faith, by faith believing God's promise of a son, offering his son Isaac and expecting God to raise him up again, and so on; if Abraham boasted of these works saying "See what I have done," then he could only boast in himself. His boasting would be selfish and not of God. It would be vain. It would not be glorifying to God. It would be "in the flesh," and the result would be "what would he had found?" The answer is nothing.

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    --Likewise, he could not glorify God. He would only be boasting of himself. It would all be to no avail. One is not justified by works. That is the emphasis here. One cannot be justified by works.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    --But the Scripture says that Abraham believed God. This was before the works took place. He was a believer and therefore did good works, not the other way around. Thus his faith in God was counted unto him for righteousness. He was saved by faith. God gave him the righteousness of Jesus Christ because of his faith in the true God of the Bible, in as much revelation as God had revealed unto him.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    --Salvation is by grace not of works. If it is of works it is not reckoned of grace but of debt. Paul uses a working illustration to teach that doctrine. When a man works he earns his wages. It is a debt that his employer owes him. He doesn't pay him out of grace (free unmerited favor). He pays him because of a debt--he owes the money because of the hours of labor that was put in by the laborer. It is debt not grace. Salvation is free. It is by grace.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    --"To him that worketh not" Salvation is not of works--not in the OT, with Abraham, and not in the NT. Salvation is all of grace. Jesus saves! Not man. Man has nothing to do with salvation. He only believes in what Christ has done on the cross. It was of grace that Christ died for our sins. It is by faith that we accept this wonderful gift of salvation that he has provided for us. Salvation is by grace through faith. There are no works involved.
    to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justivieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteous.
    It couldn't be any plainer. There are no works in salvation.

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    --David emphasize the same thing. Blessed is the man whom God imputes righteousness without works. Salvation is by grace without works.
     
  6. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    BINGO! Can you elaborate on this one a bit more?

    I think you have the answer here... God gave him the righteousness of Jesus Christ because of his faith in the true God of the Bible, in as much revelation as God had revealed unto him...
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    God had different ways of speaking to his people in the Old Testament.

    Genesis 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

    Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    Genesis 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

    It seems that the Lord spoke directly to Abraham, possibly in an audible voice. Thus the revelation that Abraham received from the Lord was possibly greater than we think. "Abraham departed as the Lord had spoken unto him." I believe that his obedience is based on his belief in God. That is what Hebrews 11:8 teaches--"By faith...he went out." He had already believed.

    Stephen sheds more light on this:
    Acts 7:2-4 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
    3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
    3 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

    Stephen states that God appeared to Abram when he was still in Mesopotamia, that is Ur of the Chaldees. When his father died in Haran, he was told again to get out from his family and go the land which God would show him. Abraham was a believer way back in Ur, before any of these works took place. God had spoken to him then.
     
  8. Snitzelhoff

    Snitzelhoff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK, I agree that perhaps God revealed more to Abraham than the Genesis account specifies. Jesus said in John 8:56 that "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad." So it's possible that Abraham knew the Gospel of Christ long before anyone else did.

    Michael
     
  9. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Buick

    For all of time (it was created) the focus has been upon the cross. We see the cross as if it is a point in time, but I believe that God views the Cross as the 'pinacle' of His Creation. I do not know why God would want to come to this earth and not have a 'Hilton' pillow for His head, but He did. I do not know why He chose to not have a shower after a long hot day on the road, but He did.

    I think that God's focus is not upon 'how' God saved people, but I do think that His focus is upon 'what' He gave up as a sacrifice for His people (the Church).

    Guero . . .
     
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    There you go Buddy, now I know what threw me. I couldn’t see the trees for the forest. BobRyan said;

    This statement threw me. What is considered the OT or the Old Covenant was/is the Levital law which was instituted by God in the time of Moses/Aaron.

    Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

    It was not enforce in the Garden of Eden. Under the OC, salvation and a “right” relationship with God came through a faith relationship with God expressed through the obedience to His law and its sacrificial system. These sacrifices provided a way to God for Israel through faith (in the law), obedience (to the law), and love (of the law).

    Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
    <snip>
    21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    We also know the law was a foreshadow but not the image of the perfect sacrifice Christ would make for the sins of the whole human race.

    Hebrews 10:1 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    You said it buddy, the cross was there all the time...

    Anyway, Abraham and Enoch were from the priesthood of Melchisedec and were not under the law or the old covenant. The priesthood of Melchisedec we know was in effect when Cain and Abel gave offerings. I like your version, “For all of time (it was created) the focus has been upon the cross. We see the cross as if it is a point in time, but I believe that God views the Cross as the 'pinacle' of His Creation” Skipping this fact was the piece I was missing.

    The answer, the Gospel in this verse "Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." can't be referring to the Law or the OT as neither were there during Abraham’s lifetime. Yes, there is one Gospel. No, the law is not the Gospel.
     

Share This Page

Loading...