When God created

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by donnA, Oct 23, 2001.

  1. donnA

    donnA
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    When God created Adam, then Eve, why didn't He create her from the dirt, like Adam, why did He take Adam's rib to do it?

    Juat been reading and thought of this, and wondered what your opinions would be.
     
  2. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    According to one of the traditions in the oral tradition (and in the parallel Babylonian creation stories), Lilith was created like Adam from the earth. (We only find her referenced in the Bible in Isaiah 34:14.) According to that tradition, Lilith sought equality with Adam and the resulting strife ended with her being cast out from the garden. Consequently, when God gave it a go the second time, God made Adam a helpmate from part of his body (a handy explanation for an anatomical puzzle) as a way of reinforcing her role as helpmate.

    The Babylonian accounts are more explicit in this regard. I think Hermann Gunkel or Gerhard von Rad might be a good source for more information.

    Joshua
     
  3. John Wells

    John Wells
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    Katie,

    Joshua is a minister who teaches from a different book than the Bible. Be wary from anyone, especially a minister/pastor who teaches/preaches from a different source than the Bible. When he does refer to God’s Word, it is with very liberal colored lenses.

    Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. (Gen 2:22-24 NIV)

    Turn the link around: “For this reason” of a man and wife becoming one flesh, “God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man.” Making woman from the rib of Adam establishes unity in a heterosexual bond. There is symbolism that the rib was used because the woman is to be beside, an equal helpmate to her man. If God had made Eve out of the dirt, then God could have made us free to practice homosexuality. Clearly we see here that God's creative purpose is for a heterosexual family foundation. Homosexuality violates God’s creative purpose. Joshua disagrees with God on that. That’s probably why he gave you an Eastern mysticism answer.
    God bless you!
     
  4. SPAM

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    Katie, this and many other questions will be answered completely when at his feet we sit in heaven. I can not wait until the marriage supper of the lamb where all things will be revealed to his children.

    As far as specualtion, and realistically that's all I feel we have here, I feel God was stressing several points by this use of the rib. Many messages have steered to the point of man and woman working together, or man placing a woman at his side and not under his thumb, and the rib being symbolic in some way.

    Suffice it to say, as far as I am concerned, I keep this in mind to remember my wife as always a partner in life. Never should I subject her to unholiness, because she is part of who I am; in the case of Adam and Eve, literally. I am responsible for her wellfare and protection. To me also, it keeps me focused on the importance of viewing her as one flesh, with me. Striving together for the masteries. My job is to enhance her, and she me.

    Be blessed.

    Paul {Spam}
     
  5. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    John-

    I like your answer here. That is a very good theory, I'll have to explore it more as we are studing Genesis in my college class.

    UNP, Adam
     
  6. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    John,

    If anything, it's a Jewish mysticism answer. According to almost every commentary I've read on Genesis, the two creation accounts in Genesis come from the Babylonian creation stories. Although Lilith pops up regularly in the originals and in some subsequent Jewish literature, she was left out of the biblical texts (with the exception of Isaiah).

    Joshua
     
  7. donnA

    donnA
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    John,
    I made some notes last night as I was reading Genesis for a class at church, and cam up with a bunch of questions. And this time I actuall wrote them down, as I usually forget what I want to ask.
    You just covered one of my posts I was going to make.
    And I loved your answer. Exactly the kind of thing I was thinking.
    And your right, I never pay attention to anyone who get their 'bible' knowledge from anywhere but the bible. If you want to read some helps(bible dictionary, greek and hebrew comparisions, I only have the back of my strong's,trusted commentaries), then thats fine, but it needs to be based on the biible. Not something else.
     
  8. Danette

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    There is another clue in I Cor. 11:3-15. Verse 8 says, "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man." This context seems to indicate that it's about authority. Because the woman was taken from the man it is clear that she is under his authority and not equal to him positionally (again remembering that position and value are two entirely different things).

    -- Danette
     
  9. Danette

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Suffice it to say, as far as I am concerned, I keep this in mind to remember my wife as always a partner in life. Never should I subject her to unholiness, because she is part of who I am; in the case of Adam and Eve, literally. I am responsible for her wellfare and protection. To me also, it keeps me focused on the importance of viewing her as one flesh, with me. Striving together for the masteries. My job is to enhance her, and she me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I love this! Such a truly Biblical perspective. Jesus' model of leadership was that of a servant -- not a taskmaster. And I don't know many women who wouldn't lay down and die for a husband that treated them with that type of honor, love and leadership. Nobody wants to obey a whip-cracker! In a way this another application of treating a wife as the weaker vessel. When a husband leads in this manner he makes it easier for his wife to love, honor, respect, obey and submit to him.

    -- Danette
     
  10. Joey M

    Joey M
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Suffice it to say, as far as I am concerned, I keep this in mind to remember my wife as always a partner in life. Never should I subject her to unholiness, because she is part of who I am; in the case of Adam and Eve, literally. I am responsible for her wellfare and protection. To me also, it keeps me focused on the importance of viewing her as one flesh, with me. Striving together for the masteries. My job is to enhance her, and she me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Amen and Amen.
     
  11. rhoneycutt

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    John,
    Why did you blast Joshua for providing information? Katie asked for opinions and Joshua responded. He even began his post with "according to one of the traditions..." He then gave her sources for further study if she desired.
    As an FYI his answer is not mysticism, even an uneducated layperson like myself has heard of and studied the Babylonian creation stories. They are available everywhere and almost every one I know has read them and considers them important to reaching a better understanding of the message of Genesis Furthermore you succeeded in turning yet another thread into a homosexual thread.
    By the way saying Joshua disagrees with God smugly implies that you have cornered the market on how God thinks, please refrain from doing that.
    Thank you.
     
  12. Joey M

    Joey M
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Josh said, "According to one of the traditions in the oral tradition (and in the parallel Babylonian creation stories), Lilith was created like Adam from the earth. (We only find her referenced in the Bible in Isaiah 34:14.)" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Isaiah 34:14
    KJV " 14The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

    NAS "And the desert creatures shall meet with the wolves,
    The hairy goat also shall cry to its kind;
    Yes, the night monster shall settle there
    And shall find herself a resting place."

    NKJV "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals,
    And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion;
    Also the night creature shall rest there,
    And find for herself a place of rest."

    NIV "Desert creatures will meet with hyenas,
    and wild goats will bleat to each other;
    there the night creatures will also repose
    and find for themselves places of rest."

    What Bible are you reading from Josh!!!
    Now I see how you justify Homosexuality, from your false theologies.
    Hey if I read from that same one you are can I go back to selling drugs like I did before I got saved?
    :rolleyes:
     
  13. Joey M

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>rhoneycutt said, "John,
    Why did you blast Joshua for providing information? Katie asked for opinions and Joshua responded. He even began his post with "according to one of the traditions..." He then gave her sources for further study if she desired." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So we longer should seek biblical answers to our questions just secular, huh?
    The man is not creditable for taking advice or anything else from, John was just warning of that. The Bible, Not John, says to mark them that follow not after the truth. I've marked the man a long time ago and will not take spiritual advice from him and will warn eveyone I can not to take advise from him also. By those standards you just posted, as long as I done it politely I could give advise from a wicca bible and all would be ok, as the wicca bible is quiet commonly known also.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>By the way saying Joshua disagrees with God smugly implies that you have cornered the market on how God thinks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    So if I say that to a man, whom belived God was actually satan, that he disagrees with what God says in His word, am I saying that I have cornered the market on how God thinks?
    I think Not! God is clear about how He feels about homosexuality, If you can't see that I would recommend putting down those secular books and get into God's word for a little while. Not meant to be sarcastic.

    God speed.

    [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]
     
  14. Rev. Joshua

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:

    What Bible are you reading from Josh!!!
    :rolleyes:
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The one written in Hebrew.

    "...Liliyth umats'ah lah man'och"

    "...and Lilith will find for her place of rest."

    Joshua
     
  15. rhoneycutt

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    Joey,
    Thanks for the advice. Do you go around marking people who disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures?
    Do you know Joshua? Are you familiar with his ministry? I think you need to relax. Joshua is not trying to push anything on you, he is exchanging thought out posistions that are a little left of mainstream. Why are you so nasty?

    By the way...
    Isa. 34:14 Wildcats shall meet with hyenas, goat-demons shall call to each other; there too Lilith shall repose, and find a place to rest. NRSV
     
  16. Rev. Joshua

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    If you want further information, check the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon, which I assume even our most conservative scholars here will agree is the standard for biblical Hebrew.

    The entry number is 3917, and it's on page 539 in my edition. If you don't have a copy and are genuinely curious, I can give you the Talmudic texts and other writings in which /Liyliyth/ is used to describe "Lilith the night hag."

    According to Jewish tradition, after being cast out of the garden, she became a creature/demon of the night during which she preyed on the unwary.

    Joshua
     
  17. donnA

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    It has nothing to do with interpetation, if it's not even the bibe.
    All our bible knowledge needs to come from the bible. You can not mix other texts from somewhere else with the scriptures.
    If thats Joshuas opinion, then fine, but it isn't scripture, and should not be taught as such. The bible is plain and clear, when God created a woman for Adam it was Eve, not someone else then Eve. I trust scripture as it is, untwisted. If there had been another woman for Adam before Eve, would that be a divorce? Sounds like it to me.
     
  18. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    Katie,

    It's more than just a casual opinion. The general consensus among Old Testament scholars is that the two creation accounts in Genesis are edited versions of the Babylonian account.

    In the Babylonian one, the first woman is created from the dirt, but she doesn't work well with the first man. To keep that from happening again, God creates the second woman from the first man's body. Although that part is not preserved in the canonical text, it is still preserved in several later Jewish writings and the first woman's name is preserved in the Isaiah passage.

    Joshua
     
  19. Joey M

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thanks for the advice. Do you go around marking people who disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No, just those who disagree with fundamental truths in the Bible, and those who endorse thier own agenda rather than God's.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do you know Joshua? Are you familiar with his ministry? I think you need to relax. Joshua is not trying to push anything on you, he is exchanging thought out posistions that are a little left of mainstream. Why are you so nasty? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes I know of Joshua, yes I am fimiliar of his ministry. No I don't think I need to relax, as I'm not uptight, just protective, just a watchman on the wall, that the book of Ezekiel talks about, that when we see the enemy and we warn not the people then thier bnlood is required at our hands.
    Maybe Paul should have just relaxed when he wrote to the church of Corinth. Maybe that is exactly what people told him. Maybe people told Jesus the same thing when He said "Woe unto you, scribes, pharisees, hyprocrites..."
    With the day we are living in and all the evil that is in the world and our churches, this is no time to just sit back relax and just let people say what they will.
    I don't mean to sound nasty. I just can't understand how God fearing christians can just sit back and not say anything while someone promotes secularism. Maybe if more christians would stand fast, as the Bible tells us to do and not waver for the sake of being polite, we wouldn't have so much heresy in churches today. I try to be polite when I can, but when the situation calls for firmness as I'd like to call it, then that's what I do. If it seems nasty or impolite, I do apoligize for that, as I have mentioned many times, I don't dislike or hate anyone, I wish Josh would open his eyes to the truth, but I'll not sugar coat sin as not to be offensive to the world.

    God speed.
     
  20. SPAM

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    Joshua, please correct me if I'm wrong, are you saying that God made a mistake with "the first woman made from dirt?"

    Curious, because it sure makes it appear that you are saying that God is limited to what He can see ahead in time. For, what purpose would this have taken place? Would He allow 2 mistakes and just be frustrated enough to stop there? I mean, if the first one didn't work out, and He created another, and it didn't work out either, as we know is true, why wouldn't He try again and again till He got it right?

    Thoughts?
     

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