When is Baptist no longer Baptist?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Steven2006, Aug 5, 2007.

  1. Steven2006

    Steven2006
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    I am not any kind of expert on Baptist history. But It seems like there now are so many different beliefs within those who call themselves Baptist. Not small issues, but genuine distinct substantial differences on doctrine. Does it matter? Does it do the name Baptist harm, or no it makes little difference? Maybe it has always included this much variety, and I am just becoming more aware of it because of this board. It just surprises me that there is so much less of a standard in being a Baptist than I thought there was. I used to think that if you were on vacation and driving down the road, and decided to go to a church for Sunday worship. That you could see a Baptist church, and go there knowing the basic beliefs would be the same. Sure some would be more or less conservative, and there are always different points of view on things like modesty and such. But now I am starting to think you would have almost as high a chance of random Baptist church being as different as picking a church from a different denomination. Most of my life has been spent in attending a Baptist Church. I have also attended for a little time a Christian Missionary Alliance Church and a United Brethren Church. Those two seemed to have much less in difference than much of what I have seen represented here under the Baptist umbrella.

    I understand as long as a Church believes in the Baptist distinctive, it has every right to call themselves Baptist. But does anyone feel that the name has become less meaningful? Usually you would assume that a Churches distinctives would hold them to some degree of closeness doctrinally speaking, but that really doesn't seem to be the case.

    Anyway, this is not something I am upset about, or trying to point specific fingers at so please don't misinterpret my questions. I am more curious as to what others feel on the subject. Specifically do others feel Baptist are now growing more different from each other, or has it always been this way? Is this a good or bad thing? Are there things Baptist can start to believe, even if they still adhere to the distinctives, that in reality means they should no longer be considered Baptist? Thanks in advance to your opinions.
     
  2. StefanM

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    What differences do you have in mind?

    Baptists have never been monolithic in doctrine.
     
  3. Mr.M

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    I suggest you begin with their eating habits and if you discover "chicken" missing on their personal menu...I would be highly suspicious that he or she is really a Baptist...heh
     
    #3 Mr.M, Aug 5, 2007
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  4. Steven2006

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    As I mentioned in my OP, I really don't want to turn this into a pointing fingers at people type of thing, that is not my intent. So, should I assume by your answer you feel that there is just as much differences as there has historically always been, and that such a variety is a healthy thing for Baptist in general?
     
  5. npetreley

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    How can one answer your question without getting specific, and by doing so, pointing fingers?
     
  6. drfuss

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    I think a big difference with Baptists as compared to other denominations is that individual Baptist churhes are usually the organizations that ordain ministers. In most denominations, the ordination of ministers are controlled or perfromed by the denominational officials. Therefore, the denominations have much more control over their ministers than in the case of Baptists. Due to more headquarters control, most denominational churches are less diverse than Baptist churches are.

    This BB provides an example of the degree or control, of lack thereof. In denominations where the minister credentials are controlled by the denomination officials, I don't think you will find any forums open to the public that allow basic doctrinal issues to be discussed and debated as is done here on BB. Any minister that publically disagrees with his demoninational basic doctrines would be in danger of having his credentials lifted; and therefore, not be able to preach anymore in that denomination's churches.

    Does anyone know any denominational forums that are open to the public that allow basic doctrinal differences to be dicussed and debated among ministers of that denomination?
     
    #6 drfuss, Aug 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2007
  7. Steven2006

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    I thought my last paragraph asked specific enough questions to answer.

    Can't someone answer that without having to start to point fingers at any one thing?

    This one should be pretty easy to answer. Is this good, or do you see any harm in this?

    Do you feel as long as a church believes in the Baptist distinctives, basically anything else goes, and should still be considered a true Baptist?
     
  8. npetreley

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    Well, here's my best shot at being vague. I think lots of people who call themselves Baptists should be considered a non-Baptist cult. There are differences and then there are differences. But when you go so far as to defend additional gospels or change the one and only true gospel, you've slipped out of Christianity altogether, let alone the Baptist denomination.
     
  9. saturneptune

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    If you find a thin pastor, that is a good sign the church is not Baptist.
     
  10. StefanM

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    It doesn't have to be a finger pointing endeavor. You can simply state a particular doctrine over which there is disagreement. I have no idea where you're going with this. I can see everything from Calvinism to head coverings.

    You assume on very little evidence. I wouldn't say the differences have been quantitatively or qualitatively equal throughout Baptist history, but there has never been one stream of Baptist doctrine on every issue.

    I don't necessarily think that the variety is a healthy thing, but I do believe that having a healthy dose of humility is positive. I do not believe that my doctrine is perfect. Now, if I knew which part was deficient, I'd change it, but I don't know that. Given this fact, I prefer to have freedom to hold convictions different from other Baptists.
     
  11. TCGreek

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    1. How can I disagree? I'm on board.

    2. But I have little tolerance for any Baptist group who says that you have to do things their way to be right. And we know that there are those.
     
  12. Bartimaeus

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    When?

    Here is my best shot.......If your pastor or leader were in a debate/discussion with a Mormon or a JW (without knowing beforhand what he was), and.....by the time the discussion was at it's apex......IF the cultist could not label him as a Baptist based upon the doctrines that he just spoke....then you are not a Baptist.
    The Baptist name is one of derision. It came as a castigation. Baptist people have always been identified by what they preached.

    If a JW calls you a REFORMER then you are not a Baptist.
    If a Mormon calls you a Congregationalist then you are not a Baptist.
    If a Catholic (like the first two) has no prior knowledge of what you are and labels you different than a Baptist......guess what? Sorry Charlie, too bad, soo sad.

    Bartimaeus
     
  13. Bartimaeus

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    When?

    When there is a fast train moving down the track and it is going somewhere, then the freeloaders want a free ride.

    The name Baptist was given by the enemies of true Gospel preaching. It is not a name willingly picked up, it is one applied by those who hate what you are preaching and label you.

    There are alot of freeloaders who say they are Baptists who are really something different and just want a free ride.

    Bartimaeus
     
  14. abonmarche'

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    Why do we all not want to go to scripture about this issue? Use (IF) someone does not agree with scripture about salvation, then they are not Baptist. My under standing that we all became Baptist is to pull away from the Roman Catholic Church in its Papal laws that only Can they baptise and only then you can be saved. Now, let us read Mark 1:1 thru 11. About Jesus being baptisizing process. Did Jesus or the Father condemn those folks for being baptiszed? No! In Fact the Father spoke that He was well pleased. So, now We baptist believe that anyone can be baptistzed upon the same salvation participation that John did in Verse 4 of Mark. Preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    What was this about? The Father in heaven said that Jesus will water wash you from sins (being the future Cross) and latter baptize you with the Holy Spirit as said in verse 8 of Mark. so, If someone does not acknowledge this fact, then they are rejecting Christ 's purpose and the Baptist Church purpose of believers and then they will be not Baptist. So, let not man change Gods path. If they do, woe to them, as well being rejected as Baptist.
    My point of view and I feel, that all the church body acknowledges the same. No if's or but's.
    It basically goes back to the "Who so ever" Shall!
     
    #14 abonmarche', Aug 5, 2007
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  15. Bartimaeus

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    Incorrect understanding of history. All those that came out of the roman church are the babies of the scarlet woman and still carry her marks. There has always been a remnant that never wed the state and has been seperated from roman church.

    Bartimaeus
     
  16. saturneptune

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    That is a theory, and nothing more, if you are referring to Baptists originating in the 1st century and existing along side the Roman Catholic church all the years before the reformation. It would be nice, but there is no direct evidence.
     
  17. Bartimaeus

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    When

    SaturnNeptune, Some folks get so vehemently fixed in their positions they cannot see what is in front of them.

    Did I say "Baptists from the 1st century"?
    I believe I said "that there have been those that never wed the state". A remnant, I do not believe I said anything more.

    Now....I do believe if you look at those isolated groups and churches you can see a distinction between them and the roman church.
    I have never seen factual material that proves without exception that the Baptist church (in total)came from the roman church.

    Can you be so kind as to provide it for me?

    Bartimaeus
     
  18. saturneptune

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    Did I say "Baptists from the Roman Catholic Church." I believe i said "that the idea of Baptists coming from the 1st century cannot be proven." I said nothing more.

    The reason you have not seen factual material that shows we did come from the Roman Catholic church is because there is not any, as there is no direct evidence that we existed along side of them.

    One can see distinctions between many denominations and the Roman Catholic chruch. There are some stripes of Baptist I wouldnt give you a nickel for.

    Some people become so fixed in their views, they proclaim theories as fact to support their position.
     
    #18 saturneptune, Aug 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2007
  19. npetreley

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    What is the paranoia about having been associated with the Catholic church? Isn't where we are NOW what matters?
     
  20. Archeryaddict

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    Most of us believe in the literal seven day event of the Creation.

    Sin entered the World through Adam.

    Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Him.

    2 ordainances of the church full emersion water Baptisim and the lords supper.

    Baptists believe once saved always saved, once saved.

    Baptists do not speak in toungues unless they know a foreign language and then do not speak it during the preaching of the Word of God unless a foreighn Guest needs the message to be interprited so they can understand what the message is that is being preached.

    Most Baptists belive in the Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

    an apropriate Dress code that Is Reverant and Respectable.

    Yes we do eat a lot of Chicken, fried,Baked, broiled, grilled how it is prepaired don't make much difference...Its all Good

    And John the Baptist was the first Baptist so there you have it.
     
    #20 Archeryaddict, Aug 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2007

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