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When is dancing wrong?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by John of Japan, Aug 8, 2006.

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  1. Miriam and the women dancing before the Lord (Ex. 15:20)

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  2. The immodest, idolatrous dancing of the Israelites (Ex. 32)

    29 vote(s)
    78.4%
  3. The folk dance of the daughters of Shiloh (Jud. 20)

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  4. David dancing before the Lord without outer garments (2 Sam. 6)

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  5. Children doing folk dances (Job 21:11, Luke 7:32)

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
  6. Dancing as worship with tamborine (Ps. 150:4)

    3 vote(s)
    8.1%
  7. A young girl dancing for the entertainment of old man Herod (Matt 14)

    27 vote(s)
    73.0%
  8. None of the above

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%
  9. All of the above

    2 vote(s)
    5.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Havin' a busy spell, John? It happens to the best of us. ;)

    Now John. You know that this passage is talking about marriage(and Paul's preference that folk remain single and celibate). :rolleyes: Certainly isn't talking about dancing.

    Honestly, you make it sound as though it's not possible for a man to simply touch a woman with being led to lust. If I thought that was the case I wouldn't let my husband out the door much less go to work in an office full of women.

    Let me be clearer. While presenting the Bon in Japan as part of a religion festival is sin, would presenting the Bon in America as part of a presentation of Japanese folk dances also be sin?

    Perhaps dancing hasn't been used to bring people to Christ, as you've used the martial arts, because of the stigmatism that has been attached to it. The same kind of stigmatism that some in the early church attached to meat that had been sacrificed to idols. (see I can make the passage about meat apply, just like you made the passage on marriage apply. :D)
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Personally, I think the Bible puts more emphasis on the dangers of adultery and other sexual sin than it does on the dangers of punching the wrong guy in the nose! To give the parallels, the 10 commandments prohibit both adultery and murder. Jesus took it further and said that lusting after a woman was adultery and hating a person was murder.

    The wrong kind of dancing can lead to lust, but I fail to see how even the wrong kind of martial arts can lead to hate and thus unrighteous violence. That hate comes from within the person and not from the martial arts. On the other hand, my point all along about the wrong kind of dancing is that it puts one in the position of being tempted.

    As pointed out above, I see no way that the martial arts promotes hatred which would lead to "a quick poke in the chest." The problem is not the discipline itself but the level of anger or hatred in the individual. In fact, in many cases the martial arts have helped individuals to control that anger within. After all, self discipline is part of the fruit of the Spirit, right?

    Hmm, did I say, "On the other hand, dancing with a partner of the opposite sex who is not your mate is aiming one straight towards adultery." That's pretty strong. Must have been feeling my oats! Are you sure you have that in context? Here is the context of my thinking.

    I have never said that all dancing was wrong. In my book dancing is wrong when it:

    (1) involves intimate touching of people not your mate (1 Cor. 7:1, "It is good for a man not to touch a woman.)
    (2) tempts to lust by body movements emphasizing certain parts of the body or by immodest dress (Matt. 5:28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.")

    If you don't do either kind of dancing, no hair off my chin! On the other hand if you can watch a lady wiggle like they do in some kinds of dancing, or put your arm around the waist of a woman not your wife and not have thought problems, you are a MUCH better man than I am! :smilewinkgrin:


    If you have to do all of this to keep your mind out of the gutter in a social dance, seems to me to be dangerous! :eek:

    When I'm doing a martial arts kata, I don't have to concentrate on not busting people in the nose! I have my principles right, and know precisely when and how I will bust someone in the nose! Plus there is usually no one near enough to tempt me to bust them one! :smilewinkgrin:

    Along that line, if you are interested, I have a pamphlet out, Christian Philosophy of Self Defense. PM me if you are interested and I'll tell you how to get it.
     
  3. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    It is not the violence that is wrong. It is using the violence in a manner that violates other principles in the Bible.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm still having a busy spell, but feel I need to take a break from my work and comment on this verse since you and a couple of others have mentioned it.

    In context, yes, the verse is talking about marriage. Why are we to have our own mate? In order to avoid temptation (v. 2). What constitutes temptation in this context? Touching a woman (v. 1). The Greek word is haptomai, which is used for touching in many contexts, but here obviously means sexual touching. (I remember seeing it being used by Jesus after His resurrection when He said "Touch me not," obviously not a sexual touching.)

    Now in the original there are no definite articles after "man" and "woman," so the translation is right: "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." That is "a man" and "a woman."

    So is it talking about dancing? Yes, if the dancing means sexual touching of a man and a woman not married.

    I remember being shocked and surprised when my wife told me women (maybe not you!) react to a man's arm around her waist as being an intimate gesture. Since that time there is no way I would put my arm around the waist of a woman not my wife. If only 50% of women consider that an intimate gesture, I would be violating that verse half the time!

    It would be sin for the Japanese, since they would know its meaning, but not for the poor ignorant American! :tongue3:
     
  5. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Now that's a deep thought... I had to think for a minute!!
     
  6. l_PETE_l

    l_PETE_l New Member

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    As the god's that were offered meat had no power, the god honed in the dance has not power. Neither do harm to the Christian. Of course we would not dance in front of those here who still oppose such things.
     
  7. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    But John, if you punch someone in the nose you must hate them is as fair as saying if you touch someone in a dance you must be lusting.



    It’s easy enough to compare the two if either is taken out of a Christian mind frame. Are you telling me you’ve never came across a martial arts studio that had poor discipline and guidance, not to mention pagan philosophy instead of Christian values?

    What’s wrong with me twisting your kata dancing around and say it leads to temptation for a challenge while there must be imagining of an opponent to destroy him in hate.

    I personally know a 10th degree dan (will PM his name to you if you like) that doesn’t go anywhere without a body guard because his reputation alone leads people to hate him and challenge him causing conflict. BTW he is a pastor of a very large church and he being a martial artist is judged by other people hatefully, so can his art be considered to cause unrighteous violence since he chooses to participate in Arts? If not, why can social dancing be considered to cause lust if one chooses not participate in lust?



    It that example there was no hatred involved; that could be considered a way to get free lessons. :smilewinkgrin:



    And the problem is not with the social dance itself but the level of promiscuity or suggestiveness in the individuals doing the dance.



    Right!


    I’d have to do an exegesis and get the context working.



    Hate to see you have to get out of a crowded burning building in a hurry with that interpretation. Will have to disagree that touching a woman on the waist in a dance is being sexually intimate. I know people who would say martial artist train to kill people.


    Granted there are improper body movements in some styles of dancing but I have a feeling what some would consider “movements emphasizing certain parts of the body” or “immodest dress” to be unto lust may not even be thought of that way by others which again goes back to the heart. (Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure in his heart bringeth forth good things; an evil man out of the evil things in his heart bringeth forth evil things.)



    Naw, I just don’t take dancing so personally, wiggle??? What would you have one do stand there stiff with their hands on their sides, would raising up and down on their toes be alright? :smilewinkgrin:



    I don’t have to do all that I was just trying to suggest some training exercises for someone that thought dancing was dangerous. :wavey:



    When I’m socially dancing I don’t have to concentrate on not lusting! I have my principles right too, and know precisely when and how and who (wife) to desire.



    I’m just messing with you Bro, first if you think it is wrong for you to dance socially then I agree you shouldn’t do it, (if I saw you I would probably laugh at you anyway! :smilewinkgrin: ) as long as no one points a finger at me saying, sinner. Second, I’d be one of the last people on this earth to say that a Christian should roll over on his back with feet in the air like a whipped pup while wetting their self when confronted with violence or unrighteousness.

    Further, I think martial arts is a great ministry tool to use for drawing youth into Christian fellowship. I just also think social activities such as dancing in a Christian mind frame shouldn't be so highly judged, while fellowship and pure thought would be encouraged could be very beneficial to draw couples to get out and be social while setting a good example that Christians don’t have to be stuffed-shirt and judgmental over what they judge is in another’s mind. Look at the divorce rate in this country among the Christian population, people aren’t being brought into the church learning Christian principles, they’re being pushed away by these types of religious judgments. We had a couples group at my old church that became very tight and grew rapidly through social events which “GASP” included dancing, swimming, laser tag, picnics, movies, and oh yes Bible study bringing people closer to God and "His" righteous judgment.

    I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about the dancing guidelines concerning matters of the heart as I would say if one thinks it causes them to feel sexually intimate then they should refrain from doing it.



     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I did not say that if you touch someone in a dance you must be lusting. My whole point all along has been that if you dance touching someone not your mate you can be tempted to lust.

    I do the Christian martial arts. All of my rank in the arts has been from Christian instructors without exception. Are you telling me that this is a direct parallel to dancing while in close contact with someone not your wife? We'll just have to disagree here, because I certainly don't see the parallel to the Christian martial arts I practice: Christian founders, Christian instructors, Christian philosophy. (With the exception of my original martial art, wrestling.) Is there such a thing as a Christian dance style?
    I'd love to hear who this is. Maybe I know him--I'm sure I at least know him by reputation. If he is a TKD guy, I'm pretty sure I know who you mean. Anyway, PM me for the fun of it.
    Are you telling me that there is a tremendous discipline in dancing that teaches you self control? Unless you are talking about a professional tap dancer or the like, to me the martial arts are as different as night and day from social dancing! :smilewinkgrin:




    Um, in terms of intimacy, I hardly think an accidental touch while fleeing a burning building, or an on purpose touch to save a life is the same as a deliberate touch of a woman during a social dance.

    Has nothing to do with being a good or bad man in my book--just being a man! With the exception of eunuchs of course. Benjamin, if you are married, have you ever had a talk with your wife about such matters? My wife and I have a number of times. It has been very eye opening to both of us.
    Naw, it'd be silly--would kind of look like Wing Chun Gung Fu, where you stand in one place for the whole first form and never move your body or shoulders. But virtually none of the folk dancing (or hey, tap dancing) that I've ever seen had to do the wiggles. :tongue3:

    Yep, sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree.

    God bless.
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The point I made was not about whether or not the idols have power, or about meat that has (past tense) been offered to idols and dance that has been (past tense) offered to idols. My point was about dance that is (present tense) being offered to the idols at the time it is done, which is idolatry and an abomination in the sight of God. No offense, but I'm surprised you don't see this--or maybe I'm just missing the point of this post. :confused:
     
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    When is it right?
     
  11. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    When it's done in the privacy of your own home with your spouse.
     
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Now there’s an idea, Christian dance style!!! yep, taking a secular idea and found a Christian ministry out of the original, Christian instructors… Christian philosophy… hey, this could really take off! I can already envision some new dance styles; the Christian twist- training would involve duck taping some boards from under their arms to their knees and let them have at that Chubby Checker tune.



    Well see the thing about Wing Chun is that they always keep balance even though they stay in close, they actually think it’s acceptable to step in and will use your own poor balance against you; otherwise some old school TKD guy might kick the wind out of you. :thumbs: :laugh:
     
    #72 Benjamin, Aug 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2006
  13. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    When is dancing wrong??

    When you are not her husband ---- and she is not your wife!!!

    You think about that one!!!
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Shudder. You mean people still do the twist??
    I had an old school TKD guy do exactly that to me last year on furlough! I wasn't doing Wing Chun at the time but rather dragon style. I said "Light sparring." I forgot that those guys don't know what that means. :tongue3: Now these young Olympic type TKD dudes.... :D
     
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