When is "fulness of the Gentiles"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Nov 11, 2007.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Rom 11:11¶I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles,
    for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Rom 11:12Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

    Rom 11:13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

    Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

    Act 10:14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

    Act 10:15And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

    Peter was converted to believe that Salvation had come to the Gentiles.

    Paul, must of believed the fulness of the Gentiles had come, for he believed he might save some of them that were blinded, which couldn't be saved until the "fulness of the Gentiles.

    BBob, :praying:
     
    #1 Brother Bob, Nov 11, 2007
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  2. Rippon

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    Romans 11:25 "... until the full number of the Gentiles come in." That means until all whom God is determined to save from among the Gentiles be saved . That's connected to 2 Peter 3:9 :" The Lord does not delay His promise , as some understand delay , but is patient with you , not wanting any to perish , but all to come to repentance ." ( HCSB )
     
  3. skypair

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    I agree, rip. It speaks of a point just prior to the rapture when the full number of the Gentiles are come to Christ. Then the full number of the Jews will come.

    Paul describes it as "....and they, if they be grafted back in, ..." That in itself suggests that the "wild branches" will be taken out.

    skypair
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    Romans 11:
    23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again

    Peter:
    1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Peter was speaking to the "elect" and according to scripture they were among those already saved.

    Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    The "elect" were not blinded according to Paul, who wrote the passage of some being blinded.

    Paul, must of believed the fulness of the Gentiles had come, for he believed he might save some of them that were blinded, which couldn't be saved until the "fulness of the Gentiles.

    Paul also said that he in his day might save some of them, knowing full well, that he couldn't until the fulness of the Gentiles had come.

    Now again, please give scripture for saying until the very last Gentile is saved, for both Gentile and Jew are being saved now, who believe.

    I don't want just what you think about the matter, I want scripture. I gave you scripture where Paul seems to think it had already come, now give me scripture, where it will not come until the very last Gentile comes in. Don't you believe the fulness of Salvation has already come to the nations of the Gentiles?????

    Romans 11: 25: (For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in..) Also, scripture says that Israel was only blinded in part and scripture also says, the election hath already obtained salvation.

    Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. (could you explain why Apostle Paul thought he might save some of them, in his life time??)

    You are cherry pickin and trying to make a theology.

    nor does Peter tells anything about the "fulness of the Gentiles".

    It is a fact, if any of the Jews will believe on Jesus now, they can be saved, and the "elect" has already been. You all are looking for the Nation of Israel to be saved, and the Nation of Israel, was not blinded!!!

    Of course, IMHO!!

    BBob, :praying:
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Nov 12, 2007
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  5. righteousdude2

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    Great Bible Study Topic

    Thanks Brother Bob for a great topic. I learned a few things from the scriptures and the responses. I was not familiar with the term, though it was discussed in my Bible classes.

    The reason I love these forums has to do with the wisdom I glean from so many of my brothers. I can only hope and pray that others will appreciate my input as time goes on.

    So far, I love this site and will be making this my primary forum for cyber-fellowship and advanced learning.:godisgood:

    Again, thanks for this topic and thank all of you who have provided feedback.

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul
     
  6. npetreley

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    I think the fullness of the Gentiles and the time of the Gentiles are related. The time of the Gentiles is probably synonymous with the great tribulation, or at least overlaps with the great tribulation. It is possible that we're living in the time of the Gentiles right now, but I'm not sure about that. I do believe the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet come in.

    Anyway, the time of the Gentiles lasts up until the end of the great tribulation, which is when the Day of the Lord begins.

     
  7. Brother Bob

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    The time of the Gentiles is "war".

    The fulness of the Gentiles is Salvation comes to the Gentiles.

    There is no comparison whatsoever.

    We certainly are living in times of wars and famines, earthquakes. I do not think this is speaking of the fulness of the Gentiles

    that Paul spoke of. For Paul spoke of Salvation to the Gentiles, not the Gentiles destroying Jerusalem. 24: And they shall fall

    by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the

    Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. In no way does this compare with the "fulness of the Gentiles", which is

    when Salvation come to the Gentiles. (not war)

    Maybe you could explain to me also, why did Apostle Paul feel that he might save some of them that were blinded, in his day,

    which couldn't happen until the "fulness of the Gentiles". Is the "fulness of the Gentiles" different than the time of the

    Gentiles? Could the fulness of the Gentiles mean when "salvation" had come to the nations of the Gentiles? Because that is

    what the fulness of the Gentiles is.

    Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. (could you explain why Apostle Paul thought he might save some of them, in his life time??)


    BBob,
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Nov 12, 2007
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  8. npetreley

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    It doesn't say he wanted to save those who were blinded, and it doesn't say NONE of the Jews would be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. It says they were blinded IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

     
  9. Brother Bob

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    Are the following two scriptures speaking of the same group of Israelites??

    Rom 11:10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    BBob,
     
  10. EdSutton

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    No doubt, this is 'expert' testimony!

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ed
     
  11. EdSutton

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    Nor does Peter ever say anything about "propitiation", either.

    Both of which 'proves' exactly what??? :confused:

    Ed
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    Paul apparently believed that it meant when salvation to the Gentile nations was completed and apparently believed it had already happened, being he thought he might save some of them.

    The time you and Npet and TC are saying is the "fulness of the Gentiles" is the time of the Gentiles where they will be destroying Jerusalem, not receiving Salvation.
    This is what you are calling the "fulness of the Gentiles", don't seem to be Salvation to me.

    Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled

    None of you have explained why Paul thought he might save some of them in his day and he wrote the passage of "fulness of the Gentiles", where the blinded couldn't be saved until it came, yet Paul thought he might save some. Please explain this, instead of making up something!!!


    BBob,
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Nov 13, 2007
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  13. Brother Bob

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    You need to catch up on the thread before opening your mouth Ed and the mush come out of it. I was referring to a statement by Rip and Npet.

    BBob,:BangHead:
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Nov 13, 2007
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  14. Palatka51

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    Just as there were a few Gentiles that believed during Israel's time, Jonah's call to go to Nineveh for example, so too have a few Jews believed during the fullness of the Gentiles. I think that Jesus' time on earth was at this junction in beliefs between Jew and Gentile. If you'll recall Jesus' comment on the faith of the Gentiles that came to Him, " Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
    Please note the highlighted scripture as a basis for why I have made the above statement.
    Matthew 8:5-13
    5And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

    It seems that God acts when faith is at a low among men. In that I mean He acts with some type of judgment. At this time He sent His Son. At other times judgment came as a flood, as plagues, invading armies or famine.
    If in the Gentile world faith is at an all time low then yes we are very near to the fullness of the Gentiles.
     
    #14 Palatka51, Nov 13, 2007
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  15. skypair

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    Bob --- Paul was speaking about bringing some of his fellow Jews in early. Rememer, Paul said he himself was as one "born out of season" (Saw a vision of Jesus similar to Zech 12:10). He was the exception to Isreal as a whole which would come in AFTER the Gentile church was "full."

    skypair
     
    #15 skypair, Nov 13, 2007
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  16. skypair

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    Paul --- welcome! :wavey: I hope you will stick around, learn, and even offer your wisdom and experience to encourage and exhort us here.

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

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    Yup -- they're both about Gentiles alright! :laugh:

    "Fulness of the Gentiles" comes pretrib when then Gentiles have "all been saved" and raptured -- then "shall all Israel be saved." God finishes dealing with the Gentiles before saving the other. This speaks of "spiritual" fulness.

    "Times of the Gentiles" comes postrib when the Gentile rule is overthrown by Christ and all Israel (resurrected OT saints, too) comes to rule under Christ. This speaks of "secular" fulness.

    The order of events then is the rapture of the church, the "day of the Lord"/tribulation begin, and then "all Irseal" begin to be saved their "fulness" coming in when Jesus returns.

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, Nov 13, 2007
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  18. Brother Bob

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    Here is the entire passage and Paul was speaking about those who were blinded. How many times did God blind some of Israel, so salvation would come to the Gentiles??

    Romans 11:

    7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
    11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
    13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (it was impossible to save them until the fulness of the Gentiles had come).

    Please be willing to learn something and read all of the above and see that it is talking about the ones who were blinded, so salvation would come to the Gentiles. Then Paul said that in his life time, he might save some of them.
    Just read the entire passage for what it says. Don't run off some where else as TC is doing, but define this entire passage.

    The passage says what it says and if it was against my theology, I would be honest enough to admit it. If I did not understand the passage, I would admit it, but it is plain enough that a child could understand it.

    BBob,
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Nov 13, 2007
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  19. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Bob,
    I haven't been able to follow your argument where you tie together Paul's discussion of saving some of those who were temporarily blinded and him needing to do it after the "fulness of the Gentiles".
    How do you connect that he can only save some of his fellow Jews now that the fulness of the Gentiles had been reached or completed?
    I've already told you what I thought Roms. 11:14 is speaking about and that I wasn't sure how to take 11:25. But I'm confused about you bringing those two thoughts together and thus creating some sort of timeline for the apostle Paul.

    I'm also not sure what you're saying here:
    In what sense was the salvation to the Gentiles nations completed in Paul's time?

    It seems like you believe Paul needed this "fulness" to be complete before he could expect any of his fellow Jews to be saved and I'm not sure I agree with that.
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Its possible they all could of been saved, but Paul knew he couldn't reach them all, so he said that he might save some of them. As in the following scripture. We can tell its talking about the same Israelites that were blinded because the scripture says so.


    Romans 11:

    7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
    8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9: And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
    10: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
    11: I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12: Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
    13: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. (it was impossible to save them until the fulness of the Gentiles had come).

    The above passage stated their eyes were darkened, so it was those who were blinded for salvation to come to the Gentiles.

    At the bottom of above passage, still talking about the ones whose eyes were darkened, of blinded, Paul said that he might at least save some of them.

    Below, show that they could not be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles came, but yet Paul felt he might save some of them, so Paul must of believed the fulness of the Gentiles was over.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    So, those who were blinded could not be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles came and Paul stated that he might save some, so Paul must of believed the fulness of the Gentiles had come. After all, Paul is the one who wrote the passages concerning salvation to the Gentiles.

    I know, you can find where Paul said they would be blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles.

    I also know, you can find where Paul thought in his life time, he might save some of them.

    All can be found in the above passages.

    BBob,
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Nov 13, 2007
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