When is it complete?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by music4Him, Jan 1, 2005.

  1. music4Him

    music4Him
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    1Cor. 13:10 -
    But when that which is perfect (i.e. complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    I was just wondering when will will complete come? (i.e. when Jesus was born, crucified, ressurected, and asscended into heaven and then returns agian....

    or
    in 70 A.D.

    or
    when all prophcey is fullfilled including that which is in the book of Revelation?
     
  2. Charles Meadows

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    At the second coming.
     
  3. music4Him

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    Thats what I was thinking too......guess we are the only ones? [​IMG]
     
  4. Walguy

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    Actually it will be at the beginning of the New Heaven and New Earth (Rev 21). That is when all the unrighteous will have been judged, and all the saints glorifed. Only then will there be no one left who needs to be instructed, and thus no more need for gifts such as knowledge and prophecy.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Jesus had already come by the time of 1Cor 13 so it is not the first coming or the ascension of Christ into heaven after His resurrection. All that is in the past at the time of 1Cor 13.

    It is the 2nd coming then - when we "see face to face" and no longer "in a glass darkly".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. music4Him

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    Wow....... I am standing amazed so far.....sure wish my buddy DHK would weigh in on this question also. [​IMG]
     
  7. Ps104_33

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    I also believe that the Second Coming is what is being referred to here, not the Word of God which is a common error.
     
  8. music4Him

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    Thank you, Ps104_33, BobRyan, Walguy, Charles Meadows for your replys.....

    Now I am really being serious here and not trying to be disrespectful to anyones doctrine but, I too was told it was the written Word of God. BTW, for a while I thought it was talking about Jesus until I was listing to a Babtist preacher on TBN and he explained the word "perfect" means (in the greek) the same as "complete"....and that makes alot of since... Thats why I'm asking this question and heres my delima that has me shaking my head.
    If the "complete" is the 2nd comming of Jesus when all prophcey if fulfilled then....here it comes ya'll.....then wouldn't this mean the gifts are still here? Because they should cease when the perfect/complete comes?

    The whole scripture in context reads......
    1Cor.13:8-10~
    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


    Now who understands this?
     
  9. Walguy

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    First of all, if the 'perfect' was the completion of Scripture, we should all be seeing as 'face to face' now, and clearly we don't. We still have all kinds of disputes about what many Bible passages mean. We are obviously still seeing in a mirror dimly. Also, Paul spoke of this event in the first person: "Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." (I Cor 13:12) Now, where was Paul when the canon of Scripture was completed? With the Lord! That event didn't affect him in the least. It is a logical necessity that he was talking about something with broader implications that the completion of the Bible.

    This section of the letter is about Spiritual Gifts, and this particular passage is talking about the gifts of Knowledge and Prophecy. These are instructional gifts, and for these gifts to be needed, there must be people to instruct. Before the completion of Scripture these gifts were partly revelatory, but not completely. They also helped people to understand and teach about revelation that had already been received in a particular local Church. According to Paul, they will end when the 'perfect' comes. In this context, this must refer to the time when there is no longer need for instruction, because everyone will know God's truth as well as we ourselves are known by God (v. 12). The point in the future when this will occur is when all unbelievers have been finally judged, and all believers have been finally glorified. This will immediately follow the last judgment, at the beginning of the 'New Heaven and New Earth.' (Revelation 21:1) Prior to that point there will still be need for instruction, and the Gifts God has given for that purpose will still be active.

    Now, SOME of the Gifts have already passed away. In I Cor 13:8 Paul uses one verb in one voice to refer to Knowledge and Prophecy, and another verb in another voice to refer to Tongues. The wording specifically indicates that the Knowledge and Prophecy will end as a result of something external acting to end them, but tongues will die out on their own, without anything external being involved. Then in verse 9, when Paul talks about the 'perfect,' he refers only to Knowledge and Prophecy, NOT to tongues. The clear implication is that Tongues would have a different, earlier ending point, and a different manner of ending, than the Gifts of Knowledge and Prophecy. And in fact history teaches us that Tongues DID end. By the conclusion of the 1st century tongues were no longer occurring as a normal activity among Christians. The other Sign Gifts of Interpretation, Healing and Miracles also ended. Why? Because these Gifts were temporary in nature, to verify the messages that were being revealed through the gifts such as Knowledge and Prophecy. Though these messages were miraculous revelations, they were not obviously so. The sign gifts WERE obviously miraculous, and their presence authenticated the message as being from God. (This was the way Jesus Himself used miracles, if you will recall, not as an end unto themselves as modern 'tongues' usually are.) When the canon of Scripture was complete, there was no longer any need for these particular gifts, so the Spirit stopped giving them. God DOES still miraculously heal sometimes in answer to prayer, and I'm open to the possibility that he occasionally will allow someone to genuinely speak in Tongues (a real language unknown to the speaker but known to someone else present, not the meaningless babbling that usually passes for 'tongues' nowadays) in a particular situation. But neither of these things is the same as the GIFTS of Healing and Tongues, which were given to specific people to be used regularly.

    Gifts such as Prophecy and Knowledge, on the other hand, are still very much needed to help us understand the revelation that has already been given to us in the Bible. Those gifts will end only when the 'perfect' comes, the New Heaven and New Earth, when all that are left are glorified believers who know and understand God's truth as revealed in Scripture as well as we ourselves are known by God, and there is thus no longer any need for ongoing help in understanding.

    I believe this interpretation is the only one that completely fits all the points Paul brings up in the latter section of I Cor 13.
     
  10. music4Him

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    Walguy,
    Here are the verbs.......
    *fail
    *cease
    *vanish away

    ....now examine them under the greek. [​IMG]

    Prophecies, knowledge, and tongues don't go until its all complete. [​IMG]

    quote from Walguys post:
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    When the canon of Scripture was complete, there was no longer any need for these particular gifts, so the Spirit stopped giving them.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Is this your opinion or what the bible says? :confused:
     
  11. Walguy

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  12. Walguy

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    Sorry, technical difficulties, lol [​IMG]

    Look closer. Verses 9 & 10 say: "For our knowledge is imperfect, and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away." There is no mention of Tongues in relation the the 'perfect,' only prophecy and knowledge.
    When you back up to verse 8 you will see why. Paul used the same verb to refer to prophecy and knowledge, in the same 'voice': the passive voice, which indicates action on the subject. Paul was saying that prophecy and knowledge would end as a result of something acting to end them. In the next 2 verses he identifies what will end them as 'the perfect.' The verb used by Paul in reference to tongues, on the other hand, is not only a different word, but in a different voice: the MIDDLE voice, which indicates action of the subject UPON ITSELF. In contrast to knowledge and prophecy, which will be ended by something acting on them, Paul tells us that tongues will end all by themselves, and thus tongues are NOT mentioned in the following verses in relation to 'the perfect.' The ending of true Tongues has already happened, long ago, by the simple device of those having the Gift dying and never being replaced by the Spirit, who had stopped giving that gift.

    It is a reasonable inference from both Scripture and history. God always does things for a reason. Understanding what a particular Gift is supposed to do helps us understand when it is no longer needed. History confirms that what Paul said about tongues did in fact come to pass. Because of our human limitations we still 'see in a mirror dimly,' so knowledge and prophecy are still needed, and still active. It's really not that hard to understand if you have all the facts and an open mind.
     
  13. Eric B

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    What most don't realize is that the tongues of Acts and the Tongues of Corinthians are two different things. In Acts, it was people hearing one real language in their own real language. This was not repeated at all in scripture. In Corinthians(14:2, 4), it is "For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; nevertheless in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
    He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church". This would still be possible today, though I admit, it is too often overdone, misused, feigned, not done properly (interpreter, etc) and with order.
     
  14. Walguy

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    What most don't realize is that the tongues of Acts and the Tongues of Corinthians are two different things. In Acts, it was people hearing one real language in their own real language. This was not repeated at all in scripture. In Corinthians(14:2, 4), it is "For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; nevertheless in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
    He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church". This would still be possible today, though I admit, it is too often overdone, misused, feigned, not done properly (interpreter, etc) and with order.
    </font>[/QUOTE]It needs to be understood that while the incidents of Tongues speaking in Acts are not instances of the GIFT of tongues, it's the same ability: speaking in a language unknown to the speaker but known to at least one other person present. It is partly because of those isolated instances in Acts that I am open to situational Tongues speaking, just as healing sometmes happens situationally in response to prayer. God can do whatever He wants (that's how he got to be God, lol), but simple observation and reason tells us that no one has the true Gifts of Tongues or Healing anymore.
     
  15. Ps104_33

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    I'll tell ya what. You find me a commentary prior to the early 1900,s when the modern tougues movement began with some woman (of course) named McPhearson and I would like to see it. All the Putitans and other old time Bible teachers all said it was the Second Coming of Christ. This new fangled interpretation of ICor 13 is a reaction to the modern day Charismatic movement.
    See how dangerous it can be to mess with the Greek?
     
  16. DHK

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    I am honored to be your "buddy." [​IMG]

    1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    As it has been said many times, "Context is everything." The context is not the return of Jesus, or Jesus Himself, or the end of the age, or the consummation of all things, or Heaven, the Second Coming, or any of those things.
    Paul was speaking of Spirtual gifts and has been since chapter 12:1, where he says,
    1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    These three chapters, 12-14, speak of spiritual gifts. That is the overall context--not the Kingdom, or the Second Coming, or any of the aforementioned themes.

    Three of the spiritual gifts are mentioned in verse 8: prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (revelatory knowledge--the gift, not common knowledge). These gifts have directly to do with revelation, the revelation of God's Word. Paul has now narrowed down this portion to those gifts which deal with the revelation of God's Word. That is the context here. Again, it is not the Coming of Christ or Jesus, or the consummation of the Age, etc. It is the revelation of God's Word which prophecy, tongues and revelatory knowledge have to do with. Keep within the context of what Paul is talking about--revelation.

    There are three sets of gifts here that are all contrasted to each other. One is permanent. The other semi-permanent. And the third is temporary. In verse 8, Paul says that charity (love) never fails. It is the only one of all the gifts that is permanent. It will never fail. In verse 13, he says: "And now abides, faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love." The greatest gift is love. Why? It will endure forever. It will never end. In Heaven there will be love. For all eternity there will be love. God is love. Love will never end.

    Now consider that which is semi-permanent: faith and hope, also mentioned in verse 13 but contrasted to love. Why the contrast? Because they are as not as great as love. Why aren't they as great as love? Because they will not last as long. When will faith and hope end? They will end when Christ comes.
    "We walk by faith and not by sight."
    When Christ comes, we will see him, and no longer will walk by faith. We walk by faith now, because we see him not. Once we see Him, we will not be walking by faith.
    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    The same is true for hope. Hope will also end at the coming of Christ, for Christ is our hope. Once he comes our hope is fulfilled.
    Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    Hope will end when Christ comes.

    Now the temporary gifts are mentioned in verse 8: prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge. These will end sometime before faith and hope; that is, some time before the coming of Christ. Paul said "And NOW abides "faith, hope, and charity." But he is speaking of these gifts as very temporary in that they are ceasing, vanishing away, will be done away with. Even during Paul's time tongues was beginning to fade away. They certainly would not last as long as faith and hope. They were in contrast to them as temporary gifts. They would cease to exist sometime before that, but when.

    Paul answers that question when he says, "when that which is perfect is come." It is almost universally accepted that the Greek word, "teleion" is a neuter noun, and thus could not refer to Christ or any other masculine object. It must refer to something of a neuter gender. Again, the context is revelation. These three temporary gifts have to do with revelation. They were given to the church in the first century because the canon of Scripture was not yet complete, and they provided the extra revelation needed that we today have in the completed Word of God.

    Thus, "When that which is perfect (the completed Word of God) is come, then that which is in part (the temporary revelatory gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge) shall be done away. The Scripture was complete by the end of the first century with the completion of the Book of Revelation (98 A.D.), and the canon was closed. By that time these three gifts, as well as all the sign gifts had ceased. They were confined to the Apostolic Age. They identified an Apostle--who worked with all signs and wonders. Tongues in particular was a sign to the unbelieving Jews, as well. These miraculous gifts were given to the early churh for a definite purpose. These three in verse 8, the context being revelation, to give revelation before the Word of God was completed (perfected).

    As for looking into a mirror or glass, the Word of God often uses the illustration of a mirror to the Word of God. When you look into the mirror of the Word of God, you see yourself more clearly then you ever have before. See James 1. "But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty..."
    DHK
     
  17. Walguy

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    I'd like to issue a friendly but direct challenge for you to respond to two points about this that I have raised before.
    Paul uses the 'now...then' comparison twice in the same verse, and I don't think you would dispute that he is referring to the same thing with both. In the second he specifically refers to himself with the pronoun 'I.' This indicates that he himself will be affected by the coming of 'the perfect.' You believe that 'the perfect' refers to the completion of Scripture. If that is true, you need to explain the following:
    1) Do you really believe we no longer see God's truth in a mirror dimly, but as face to face? Do we not, in fact, still have the same uncertainties and disputes going on now that existed when Paul wrote those words? Doesn't that indicate that we do NOT see God's truth as face to face by a long shot yet, that we do not remotely know even as we are known? And if we DO already know even as we are known, that would mean we will know and understand nothing more when we are glorified. How can these things be reconciled with your view of 'the perfect?'
    2) In the second half of verse 12, Paul indicates that the coming of 'the perfect' will affect him personally. The completion of the Bible occurred well after Paul had died and gone to be with the Lord. The completion of the Bible could therefore not have affected him at all. How can this be reconciled with your view of 'the perfect?'

    I have raised these points before, and you haven't directly addressed them as far as I know (although I could have missed it, of course). I look forward to your responses.
     
  18. music4Him

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    DHK and Walguy,
    I understand as to what you are both saying but, no one had a problem with this scripture as the "perfect" (i.e. complete) that being the 2nd comming of Jesus, until tongues was mentioned.

    The way I see it is when Jesus returns, then evey prophecy will be complete, every tongue uttered from every nation
    ( Matt 24:14 -
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    ) Complete knowledge of the Lord (every knee will bow every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord). Once this is done wouldn't every thing be complete, finished, and done? [​IMG]

    Complete prophecy~
    Complete tongues~
    Complete knowledge~

    When all prophecy is fulfilled, remember that the books in the old testament also speaks of some that John prophecied in Revelation.......

    When all tongues have been spoken/interpreted (possibly bibles being witten in all languages and preachers/missionarys being able to tell every nation and every toungue the gospel of Christ). BTW, there was a Baptist missionary that visited our church who also works/worked(?its been a while since he has visited) for a bible printing press and as of that time not every language has been interpreted and printed..........

    When all knowledge has been dispersed so that every one knows everything........when is that? To me it will be when everything is complete at the 2nd comming of the Lord, but if that is so then it steps on somes doctrine toes. I'm not trying to do that exactly, but I do want people to study it out and not go by what every body else says or have the attitude as to saying.....well the preacher said it, so it must be so. I don't know about ya'll, but either this debate will strengthen your faith as to what you believe or get you to study this out better and find the scripture as to when "complete" is complete. [​IMG]

    May God Bless
    Music4Him

    BTW, I have always stated in other threads that this scripture is pivitol as to the interpretation of the greek and what one will believe as far as doctrine goes. As for me I am not saying to get into heaven you have to speak in tongues....you don't. (You need to know Jesus as you Savior and be saved....period).

    Also I'm just bringing out the possibilties as to finding out as to exsactly when this phenomenon that Paul speaks of ceased. Some bibical back up scriptures would be nice?
    [​IMG]
     
  19. DHK

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    The main point to be taken into consideration here, is that Paul believed that the return of Christ was imminent. He taught that Christ would come as a thief in the night when no one would expect it--at any time. He was expecting the return of Christ in his lifetime. But Christ never came in his lifetime.
    The same is true of "the perfect Word of God." Though he fully expected to see it, he died before its completion. He was martyred before John wrote the last book. He had the expectancy of seeing the fully completed Word of God (that which is perfect), but died previous to its completion. That is no different than dying previous to the coming of Christ. He expected both in his lifetime, and died before both events took place. I find no contradiction here.

    Thus, in answer to your first question, yes, he himself would personally affected by the coming of the perfect. He expected that he would. But whether it was the consummation of the world, the coming of Christ, or the completed Word of God, it is obvious that he wasn't. He died before any of these events took place. So that question has no bearing on the interpretation of this passage.
    The majority of the Christians in the time of Paul had only the Old Testament Scriptures to rely upon. That is why revelatory gifts were given. In the Old Testament we have Christ concealed; in the New Testament, Christ revealed. In the Old Testament we can see Christ, but dimly. In the New Testament we can see him as it were face to face. He is more fully revealed to us. It was difficult, if not nigh to impossible for them to see Christ in the Old Testament sacrifices, though they pictured Christ. We see Christ clearly as the sacrificial lamb.

    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
    --We with open face behold the glory of the Lord. How? By looking into the mirror of God's Word. This is the exact same imagery that Paul is using here. The mirror that Paul is referring to is the Word of God. The reflection is the glory of God.
    As you read the New Testament do you see the glory of God in you yourself, or do you sin marring your heart that needs to be dealt with. Do you see yourself dimly (because of sin), or clearly (because of the sweet fellowship you have with the Lord as you read the completed Word of God.)

    Seeing God's truth face to face is a personal application not a denominational one. There is no such thing as denomination in the Bible. I can see myself clearly in the Bible--for who I am, what I am, etc. It reveals to me my flaws, my sins, my short comings, etc. I am made know (to me), even as I am known.
    Different views of Scripture come from various reasons: previous biases and prejudices, pride and sin, not being objective when studying the Scripture, a refusal to rightly divide the Word of Truth, a need to please other authorities instead of God, etc.
    The unnatural man discerns not the things of God. So if the person is not saved, he will not have a right interpretation of the Word of God anyway. I fear that is what has happened with most Roman Catholics. Catholic teaching has influenced other denominations. Others have other sources of revelation than just the Bible, thus there docrine becomes contaminated.

    I have answered this question already. Paul did not foresee any of the other suggestions put forth by others in his lifetime: the coming of Christ, the cosummation of the age, etc. Why should "the completion of the Bible be held to any higher standard. You are being hypocritical here. The fact is that the completion of the Word of God is the only one that fits the context. The Greek word is teleios, a neuter noun, which "word" is. It cannot refer to Christ who is masculine. The entire context speaks of revelation, not the consummation of the age, nor the kingdom of God, nor the Coming of Christ, nor any of the other suggestions put forth. The context is the revelation of God's Word. Stick with the context.
    I have answered the best I could; I hope it is sufficient for the time being.
    DHK
     
  20. music4Him

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    Btw, I was re-reading this thread and something that Walguy said jumped out at me. boo :eek:

    Walguy said:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Look closer. Verses 9 & 10 say: "For our knowledge is imperfect, and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away." There is no mention of Tongues in relation the the 'perfect,' only prophecy and knowledge.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    How would one prophesy if he keeps his/her mouth closed. Or does not know how to speak all languages (also a part of knowledge) to get the written word of God out to all people, you have to have tongues and interpretation of tongues. Maybe Paul just figured that tongues was a "given" and didn't write it down because to prophecy or or to be knowledgable to tell others you would know some tongues or the knowledge would be imparted to those with the gift (i.e. missionary interprters)?
     

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