When is the Day of God's Wrath?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mel Miller, Nov 1, 2006.

  1. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    Friends,
    The following challenges the prevailing view of the time for God's wrath:

    WHAT DETERMINES GOD’S DAY OF JUDGMENT AND WRATH?
    Romans 2:4-5 Rev.6:16-17 Rev.14:10-12


    When is God’s “Day of Wrath”? Rom.2:5; Rev.6:17. Should we follow the teaching that God’s wrath begins when He again deals with Israel at the Endtime? Or does His wrath (orgay) follow the “end of days” with Christ taking vengeance in one day on all who reject the Gospel”? 2 Thess.1:10. Is God’s wrath a 7-year process or a one day affair?


    The latter view was the belief of early Church Fathers. But Plato taught that God is too exalted to be affected by “perturbations of anger” (thumos). This led to translating thumos (anger) as "wrath" and gave rise to the belief that, to escape His Plagues of so-called "wrath", Christians will be removed from earth during the Endtime of great tribulation and wrath!


    This tradition of the great difference between anger and wrath (thus banning any reference to a God of anger) has filtered down thru most Bibles due to Plato’s philosophy as per “The Dictionary of the Apostolic Church”, published in 1917, by T. Clark. God’s “makro-thumos” (long-anger) was translated as “long-suffering”. But to avoid translating “thumos” as “anger”, it was usually translated as “wrath”!

    Unfortunately this removed the difference! Thumos and orgay became synonyms instead of antonyms after the “vain tradition” of Plato and Church Fathers! Col.2:8.

    As a result, most Christians believe “virtually no difference exists between God’s anger and wrath”! Paul wrote: “On the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, He will render to every man according to their deeds…eternal life to those who know His long-anger (makro-thumia) leads to repentance but indignation (thumos) and wrath (orgay; KJV) to the unrighteous”!! Rom.2:4-5,8.


    The NASB inverts thumos and orgay with “wrath and indignation” coming on the wicked so as to ostensibly avoid describing God as “angry”. Because of this variance in Rom.2:8, the meanings changed from antonyms to synonyms! The prevailing view today promises that we must be removed from earth to escape the Plagues of God’s so-called “wrath during the great tribulation”!! God’s long-anger (makro-thumos) continues to the Day of Wrath according to Rom.2:4-5!!!

    Only then do His “anger and wrath mix” together. “Great earthquakes destroy earth’s mountains and cities and move islands out of place. Christ comes to tread the winepress in anger and wrath”. Blood reaches the horses’ bridles on that Day. Most Bibles mix God’s “wrath (orgay) with thumos” instead of having His “anger (thumos) mix with orgay”! Rev.14:10.


    Because of Plato’s “vain tradition” of God’s aloofness, untouched by anger, translators inverted and inadvertently made anger and wrath mean the same thing. They effectively fail to show the difference they intended to show! Translating thumos as “wrath” made the 7 Last Plagues “complete God’s wrath” instead of “completing His anger”!! Then it is argued being “kept from God’s wrath” means the Rapture must precede the Tribulation!!! Rev.15:1; 16:1.


    This prevailing view results from twisting thumos to mean “wrath” rather than “anger”. In the text leading up to God’s Hour of Judgment on the Day of Wrath, Rev.14:7; Rom.2:5, most Bibles switch the words so that God’s wrath (thumos) mixes full strength in His Cup of Anger/Indignation (orgay)! Rev.14:10. Translations assume the 7 Plagues prematurely “complete God’s wrath”. They terminate God’s long-anger (patience) seven years too soon!


    In discussions on the baptistboard.com, I was branded as presumptuous and guilty of “much ado about nothing”, of being an “error-schmerror”, as not “seeing the forest for the trees” or of making the KJV translators a “bunch of retards”. One wrote: “Scripture says God’s anger `burned’ against certain nations, so wrath must be the brand of hot dogs he makes out of them”. Another: “Error finders and artists should give us an up-to-date series of `Looney Tunes’"! What about this: “I'm 50% Labrador retriever. I'll prove it. Get me a Labrador and I'll retrieve it. Have you got a Labrador? Then Shaddup”!

    “Why did KJV translators not once render thumos as “anger”? What of twisting "thumos" to mean “wrath” when it stands alone after first being combined with orgay? We see the two words inverted in Rev.14:10 to make thumos mean "wrath"! Then with "thumos" standing ALONE in the next 4 instances, it is assumed that thumos means "wrath"!!! Rev.14:19; Rev.15:1,7; Rev.16:1.


    But, finally (and this is utterly inconsistent) when used again with orgay, the KJV translated "thumos" as less than wrath (fierceness) when it is combined again with "orgay"! They got it right at last after changing thumos to mean "wrath". It would have made no sense to combine "wrath with wrath"!!! Rev.16:19; Rev.19:15.


    Why has the Holy Spirit not revealed that God's "long-anger" (makro-thumia and mega-thumia"; Rev.14:19), finally merge with His wrath on the Day of Wrath to destroy all who refuse to repent? Yet He allows Israel en masse to “mourn, beg to escape and be kept alive”. Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; 17:30-33; Rom.11:25-27.


    If translators had rendered thumos as anger instead of wrath, Strong’s Concordance would not have made them synonymous! By inverting these words, even in Eph.4:31 and Col.3:8 with respect to us, we are now infected by a NEW "tradition" that eliminates the difference between anger and wrath but, when both words are combined, wrath becomes “anger” and anger becomes “wrath”!

    The "switch" blurs God’s wrath that refers ONLY to the “horrors” of Hell.

    Eternal torment comes when armies gather to the plains of Armageddon. After the Plagues “exhaust God's thumos" (The New Jerusalem Bible), none of the wicked will escape. Rev.6:16-17; Rev.16:17-21. The KJV never rendered #2372 as “anger”. Even with humans who ARE subject to anger, orgay was translated as “anger” and thumos as “wrath” in Eph.4:31and Col.3:8. The meanings are twisted in the text on Hell. Rev.14:10-12.


    Bound by tradition and the philosophy of Platonism, they stuck with human reasoning lest they demean the character of God as subject to the human emotion of anger. But they did so at the cost of making both words mean virtually the same thing. God's long-anger allows men to repent for 1900 years and then mixes with wrath to "destroy the destroyers of earth" in one day, the last day!


    Thumos "mixes with orgay when God takes vengeance on the Day Christ comes in flaming fire against those who refuse the Gospel! He raises up and gathers the Elect; on one of the days immediately after the great tribulation; at the (kairos) “time appointed by the 7th Trumpet"!! 2 Thess.1:7-10; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; Rev.6:16-17; Rev.11:18; Rev.16:19-21; Rev.19:15-21.


    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Mel Miller: //Is God’s wrath a 7-year process or a one day affair?//

    Yes.

    In God's Economy (Greek adaptation, English is 'dispensation'):

    The Blind see
    The Deaf hear
    The Dead live
    The Poor are rich
    The Rich are poor
    There is always room for one more in the Baptisimal Pool
    'day' = the appropriate time
    'week' = the appropriate time
    'month' = the appropriate time
    'year' = the appropriate time
    'thousand years' = the appropriate time
     
  3. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    When does God's Wrath Come?

    ED, my dear friend,

    To which part of the dual question do you answer "Yes"? Is the time
    appointed one of 7 years or is it one of a "single 12-hour-day"?? Why
    do you expand the appointed time to a period of a week, month, year
    and to a thousand years unless it serves your purpose to ignore the only reference to a single "appointed time" in Revelation???

    Once again, you give no scripture at all to dispute the "appointed time"
    of God's wrath comes only at the 7th Trumpet! You give no explanation as to when the 7th Trumpet occurs!! The "appointed time" for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribuation, given in the Book of Revelation, is at the 7th TRUMPET!!! Rev.11:18.

    The word "kairos" pinpoints the 7th Trumpet as the time to resurrect the "dead to be judged, the time to reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God" and ON THE SAME DAY, pinpoints the HOUR in which the "armies who have destroyed a third of mankind are also destroyed"!

    Ed, I prefer a more direct approach to a truth of Scripture rather than
    a nuanced approach that seeks subtle differences in meanings and then generalizes the truth instead getting to the specific point in question!!

    You have gone so far in your nuances, without any retraction, to argue Jesus meant "He will send the angels and gather the elect from earth to heaven in the days BEFORE the great tribulation" instead of sending the angels to gather them out of the heavenS AFTER the tribulation"!!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:31.

    There is no way I can continue a discourse with such loose handling of
    the English, let alone the failure to quote any scripture to support a "gathering of the elect BEFORE the tribulation"! I submit your mishandling of the "appointed kairos-time when God brings the souls of all who sleep in Jesus WITH Him at His Presence"...denies it will occur at the Last Trump of I Cor.15:52 and Matt.24:31!! The "souls of those who die in the Lord" include Tribulation Martyrs!!! I Thess.4:13-14; Rev.14:13.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Ed said:
    //In God's Economy
    ...
    The Blind see
    The Deaf hear
    ...
    'day' = the appropriate time//

    Isa 29:18-20, 23-24 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And in that day shall the deafe heare the words of the booke,
    and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscuritie,
    and out of darkenesse.
    19 The meeke also shall increase their ioy in the Lord,
    and the poore among men shall reioice in the holy One of Israel.
    20 For the terrible one is brought to nought,
    and the scorner is consumed,
    and all that watch for iniquitie are cut off:
    ...
    23 But when hee seeth his children the worke of mine hands
    in the midst of him, they shall sanctifie my Name,
    and sanctifie the Holy One of Iacob,
    and shall feare the God of Israel.
    24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to vnderstanding,
    and they that murmured, shall learne doctrine.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //ED, my dear friend,

    To which part of the dual question do you answer "Yes"? //

    Here is the question:

    Mel Miller: //Is God’s wrath a 7-year process or a one day affair?//

    I said to your question 'yes'.
    The answer is to both parts.
    God's Wrath is a special 7-year, one week, one day affair
    directed against His enemies which results in their
    death, destruction, etc.

    Here is some more about the Tribulation Period,
    the time of God's Wrath:

    ------------------------------
    The following uses:
    rapture - like a resurrection but for the living
    resurrection - being raised from the dead & given
    a new body

    --------------------------------------------------
    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week
    He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    (The City /Jerusalem/ and the sanctuary
    /Temple/ were destroyed in 70AD by then
    General /later Emperor/ Titus of Rome)

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
    Note that the capital 'H' in the second 'He'
    is to start a line of poetry - it also refers to
    the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation (AOD), dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    (the caught up together in English is 'raptos'
    in the Latin Bible, this is the RAPTURE)

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
    ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    ----------------------------------------
     
  6. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
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    When is God's Day of Wrath?

    Ed Edwards,

    You give a whole lot of Scripture; but not a single verse that says
    Daniel's 70th Seven is a period of God's wrath! The first half of that
    period is a time of peace!! It is during this time of peace that nations
    come against Jerusalem and are actually destroyed...but not Israel!!!

    You conclude with this Quote:
    ___________________________________________________________

    "The rapture/resurrection will occur without previous notice and before
    the Tribulation period (wrath).
    ___________________________________________________________

    You have failed to dispute the word of truth that "God's wrath comes
    at the 7th Trumpet"! Not even you advocates the 7th Trumpet starts the
    70th Week of Daniel's prophecy!! Your case has no grounds for argument
    from any Scripture ... or you would have disputed the "appointed time"
    for Resurrection, Rewards and Retribution occurs at the 7th Trumpet which sounds when "chronos-time shall be no longer and when God's
    mystery WAS finished" (Rev.10:6-7; aorist indicative; past tense)!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
     
    #6 Mel Miller, Nov 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2006
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //Ed Edwards,
    You give a whole lot of Scripture; but not a single verse that says
    Daniel's 70th Seven is a period of God's wrath! The first half of that
    period is a time of peace!!//

    You really aren't critiquing my post but God's
    Holy Written Word. I agree, The Holy Bible doesn't
    directly say "Daniel's 70th Seven is a period of God's wrath'.
    However, as you can see from my previous post,
    when you add the pieces together you get that
    fact: "Daniel's 70th Seven is a period of God's wrath".
    BTW, there is more to the sum than I've shown so far.

    'Two and Forty Months' (42x30=1260)
    3½-years (3.5x360=1260)
    Half of Seven years (½x7x360=1260),
    Time, Times, and Half a Time (1+2+½=3½=½x7)

    All the above equal concepts apear in the Holy Bible.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller: //Your case has no grounds for argument
    from any Scripture //

    I have but barely begun to present my case.
    My case is based only on scripture and general
    knowledge about history heretofore.
     
  9. Mel Miller

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    ************************************************

    Ed, Thanks for admitting you have not proved a 7-Year Period of Wrath.

    I agree with your remarks about the time of Daniel's 70th Seven!

    But you ignore that "God's wrath occurs as of the 7th Trumpet"!!

    The Prophetic 1260 Days of Daniel's 70th Seven are "finished in the
    days" before the 7th Trumpet sounds that "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:18.

    "Chronos-Time and God's mystery are finished" before the 7th Trumpet sounds. Rev.10:6-7. God's Day of wrath (to destroy all the wicked) therefore begins during "one of the days after the great tribulation" ends ... just as Jesus said. Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

    The Apostle Paul teaches that "God's forbearance (endurance) and
    His longsuffering (long-anger; Greek) continue until the DAY of His
    Wrath". Rom.2:4-5. Only the 7 last Plagues "complete His long-suffering"!
    Rev.15:1; Aorist Indicative; Past Tense!! Beast-Worshipers can repent; but those who gather to Armageddon refuse to repent during the 6th Trumpet and 4th and 5th Plagues and continue to blaspheme God after the very last Plague implodes and their tongues rot and knees buckle
    while standing on their feet!!! Rev.16:21; Zech.14:12.

    God's wrath occurs at the 7th Trumpet after the last Plague empties because "no one can enter the temple until the 7th Vial empties its Plague (Rev.15:8) and because the Day of Grace continues UNTIL the Day of
    Wrath; until men are no longer allowed to "treasure up wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of God's righteous judgment". Rom.2:4-5,8.

    Trib-Saints will be "kept from the Hour of Trial coming on all mankind over
    all the face of all the earth". That promise of Jesus even applies to those
    who "mourn and beg to escape so they may stand before the Son of Man" after He appears with ALL the Saints ... including the two Witnesses who rise up to heaven just before the 7th Trumpet sounds and who will be judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet ... after time shall be no longer". Luke 21:25-36; Rev.3:10-12; Rev.10:6-7 (Dan.12:7-11); Rev.11:18.

    For the 7th Trumpet is the "appointed (kairos) time" for our Resurrection, our Rewards and Retribution on all who "refuse to believe ON THAT DAY
    of Vengeance". 2 Thess.1:7-10.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     

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