When Jesus said he would fulfill the law, did he also change it?

I probably could, but I won't.
You can't even see the relevence of the discussion. If Heaven and Earth have not passed away then we are still under the Law. I believe Helen understands it.

 

The real question here from Mat 5:18 is NOT whether heaven and earth have passed away, but rather, has all the OT law been fulfilled, or accomplished? In other words, by keeping the Law Himself, did Christ fulfill our obligation to keep the Law?

In Christ (an important place to be in regard to the Law),

Tim

 

1. Jesus said "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

If those 2 commandments (mentioned in Matthew 22:36-40) are all we have to keep, then which commandment(s) was Jesus referring to as the "least commandments" . Does the above verse not apply to us?

2. When Jesus said, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Here Jesus list many commandments, including "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". If we are just to keep 2 commandments, then why did Jesus list all of the above?

3. Also, you are referring to Matthew 22:36-40 which says, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus was asked which is the great commandment in the law. Jesus told the the great commandment in the law (quoted it right out of the Old Testament). If these are the great commandments, there must be lesser commandments.


Referring to the greatest commandment: "Love your God with all your heart..."

The Bible tells us how to "Love God"

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


4. Why will we be keeping the feast of tabernacles (and keeping the other sabbaths [Isaiah 66]) after God sets up his Kingdom on Earth [Zechariah 14] if that is not for Christians.


5. Why did Jesus say "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" if he was referring to something that is still in the future? Do we (as Christians) have to pray that our flight be not on the sabbath day?

6. Why did the apostles keep the sabbath and keep making sacrifices to God many years after Jesus was dead, buried, and risen? Did they not know that they no longer had to do this?

7. Do you think that smoking cigarettes is a sin? What about smoking marijuana?

8. Each law in the Old Testament had a penalty for breaking it. Will the Christian now be able to break that law without suffering the penalty? (Can a Christian keep farming the same plot a land with out giving it rest and still have good crops year after year?)

9. When Jesus said "man shall live by every word of God", does that include the Christians and the Old Testament?


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [1 John 5:2-3]


I am not argueing with anyone, God says "Prove all things" and I am trying to get evidence/arguments for both sides, weigh them and then come to a conclusion or to put it simply...Prove it (with out a bias). Thank you for helping me do this. (By the way, has anyone else tried to do this, or have you always excepted one side as fact? Has anyone here been convinced of one side and then tested it by the scripture and came to a conclusion that you were wrong? If so tell me.)

 

Grasshopper, the Bible actually proves you wrong. I looked up the words used for 'heaven' and 'earth' there in Matthew 5, and there is no chance in the world these words refer to the Old Covenant.

The word used for 'heaven' is ouranos, meaning 'the sky, God's abode,' or eternity.' We know it cannot mean eternity in this context, for Jesus talks of it passing away. This is the same word used in hundreds of other verses, all of which indicate God's abode. Some examples are

Matt 3:17 -- Lo, a voice from heaven, saying...
Matt 4:17 -- ...the kingdom of heaven is at hand...
Matt 5:12 -- for great is your reward in heaven
Matt 5:45 -- your Father which is in heaven...
Matt 6:9 -- Our Father, which is in heaven...

And it goes on and on and on.

Then I looked up 'earth.' It is ge, meaning 'soil, region, or the solid part or the whole part of the terrene; country, earth, ground, land, world.'

This word is also used extensively through the New Testament, as in the following verses:

Matt 5:13 -- ...ye are the salt of the earth...
Matt 10:34 -- ...that I am come to send peace on earth...
Matt 24:30 -- ...all the tribes of the earth mourn

and in Matthew 24:35, Jesus speaks of earth passing away in the future tense...

These are a miniscule among of samples compared to what is there in the New Testament.

There is no indication at any time that the words used for 'heaven' and 'earth' mean anything other than the same heaven and earth created and formed in Genesis 1.

*************

James, still playing games, I see.

 

I say a hearty "amen" to Daniel David's breakdown of Matthew 5. The words of Mat 5:17-19 demand that the Law be kept as an indivisble whole. The examples Jesus gave were from all three parts of that "whole Law."
The book of Matthew goes out of its way to show how almost everything Jesus did was to fulfill the whole Law. Check it out yourself.
I believe that Jesus came as the second Adam and also as Israel personified (Out of Egypt I have calle my Son). The whole Law presented a righteous standard for national Israel to strive to attain. Only Jesus attained that perfect righteousness.
One of you quoted Romans 3:19,20 to prove the relevance of th Law, but did not go to verse 21 which shows that Christ has superseded the whole Law.
Mine is the Dispensational view.

 

Helen, it is a metaphore.

DD/James, I love your responses to people who disagree with your views.

Someday maybe the rest of us will have the expansive intellect you seem to believe you have.

 

First of all, James/DD, I was still working on my to Grasshopper when you posted, so I was not aware that you had actually come up with something we could deal with. Now...

Well now, how about that? Paul didn't even know that. Read Romans 7. Too bad you weren't around to instruct him, too, James.

The purpose of the law is to expose sin. To define it. The Holy Spirit does not doe that. Rather, He convicts. There is a difference.

What the Holy Spirit does is, in the Greek, elencho, meaning to rebuke, convict, prove guilty, show fault.

What the law does is to define what sin is. You can be convicted because of the definition of what sin is; and for this the law is necessary. But in the same way we have judges, lawyers, and juries to decide guilt or innocence in regard to the law, the Holy Spirit, acting as the entire judiciary, convicts -- again in regard to the Law. The functions are different and should not be confused.

If the Law was gone, there would be no standard by which to convict anyone of sin.

Now, let's consider your points:

Where did Christ CHANGE the law?

1. Jesus expanded the definition of murder to include even contempt and hate. Mt. 5:21-22

I already dealt with this. This is not a change. This is an explanation. Don't get the two confused. The Jews were big on outward appearances; Jesus was telling them that that was not sufficient.

2. Jesus expanded the definition of adultery to include even lust and remarriage (without argument to the exception clause). Mt. 5:27-32

same as above

3. Jesus revoked the "eye for an eye" law. Mt. 5:38

If you understood the history here, you would not see this as a change. When we look at the cultures of the time, they were all cultures where one man decided the law on the basis of only himself. Thus a cupbearer could be put to death if a hair was in the cup. "Eye for an eye; tooth for a tooth" was a LIMIT on the punishments which could be meted out by the judiciary/priests. The punishment had to fit the crime. In Matt. 5:38, Jesus was not changing the law. That stood. He did, however, raise the standard of behavior where His followers were concerned -- we are to forgive, turn the other cheek, walk the extra mile. We are to do as He did. This does NOT negate the law. The law is the base line. It stays. Asking someone to live according to a higher standard does not change that law.

4. Jesus changed the method and place of worship. John 4:22-24

I do not see anywhere in the Ten Commandments where the place of worship is defined. What change?

5. Jesus did away with the 10 commandments. Mt. 22:37 (Note that the Deut. passage which Jesus quotes says nothing of it being the greatest commandment. It is just as important as the law forbidding mixed clothing materials.)

Jesus did NOT do away with the Ten Commandments here! He stated the basis for them. He stated that rather clearly in saying "All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments." If the Law was gone, done away with, then not only was He lying in Matthew 5, but there was nothing to hang onto those two great commandments! They are a foundatio of nothing!

6. Jesus removed dietary restrictions. Mt. 15:10-11

This is ludicrous to use this verse for this purpose. Jesus was talking about uncleanliness, and its origin spiritually. It is not from food but from the heart. This was in response, by the way, to the accusation that the disciples did not wash ceremonially before eating. This was a Pharisaical rule, having nothing to do at all with God's law. Jesus was putting aside the nonsense the Pharisees were propagating, not changing the Law He established. Reading in context is such a great thing, James!

7. Jesus changed the method of discipline. Mt. 18

And where is the method of discipline you are talking about here? (I am scared to death someone is actually teaching you this garbage in a school; I would much rather you were making it up yourself and it was confined to you!)

8. Jesus did away with divorce as an option for believers (hard hearted Jews could do it in the old covenant). Mt. 19:4-8

Wrongo. Interesting you stopped your reference just before verse 9!

9. Jesus did away with the entire old covenant. Heb. 8:13 (In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.)

A covenant is an agreement. The Law is the Law. Because of Christ we have a new agreement with God, in Christ. However that does not change the Law the Lord established in the first place. He stated quite clearly this would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away. The old covenant was an agreement UNDER the Law. The New Covenant is an agreement IN Christ. The latter far exceeds the former in value, but it does not negate the former until it finally is gone, when heaven and earth are destroyed. You avoided quoting the last part of the verse you referenced, which says just that: "and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." It has not disappeared yet. It is obsolete. It is aging. It is not yet gone or changed.
It just will be. Later.

10. Jesus did away with the old covenant priesthood. Heb. 7

The priesthood was not part of the law. It was part of the establishment of the theocracy of Israel thousands of years ago. You are getting these things mixed up.

11. Jesus did away with the old covenant sacrifices. Heb. 9-10

This, too, was only for the theocracy of Israel. It is not something all men will be judged by, certainly! The Law itself is for those who are not believers.

Do not mix up God's establishment of a theocracy and the rules He gave them to govern by with the Law established by God for all people who have ever lived, that same law written on the consciences of those who have never heard it -- see Romans 2.

 

And WHO, please, gave Moses that Law, and, in fact, wrote it on STONE -- Himself?

The law came through Moses. It came FROM Christ. Christ does not contradict Himself.

And unless anyone can show me that the world was created on a Sunday, I have a hard time with the idea that Saturday is the day of rest required by God. The Commandment only says we should work six days and then rest the seventh. Paul says the choice of day is not a matter for judgment.

The commandment to rest one day is seven is as valid as it ever was.